AKC & a can of worms - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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AKC & a can of worms

I'm going to open a can of worms (so soon?) and I'm sure I'll lose a lot of respect with some members and gain a lot with others.

What is it with AKC and their judging?

The breed standard states "must show confidence" (Seiger, AKC, UKC, etc..) yet I've seen GSDs get breed (and group placements!) that are afraid of the judges! All of my dogs go into the ring like they own it, even wag their tails and NEVER cowe back from a judge.

Plus, what is up with the rear ends? I see so many "show" (and I use the term loosely) GSDs that have their rear ends closer than most toy breeds. I'd hate to see what their hips look like when the dog gets older.

Most GSDs I've seen in the ring would be horrible at what the GSD was bred to do, herd, protect, and be a loyal companion (well, most have that last one down).

Look at the history of the GSD. They were very similar to the other shepherds (Belgian shepherds, Dutch shepherds etc..) until WWII where they got their destinctive coloring (saddle, etc..) and you didn't see the extreme back end until the 70's -80's and primarily in the USA.

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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:51 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Don't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.

Judges pick what THEY think it the closest to matching the standard. If enough judges started picking German Shepherds with a pink stripe down their back people would breed for that.

Since most judges don't seem to care about temperament, neither do some breeders. They just want to breed what wins.

I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:52 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

LOL... I am anxiously waiting for this discussion...

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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangDon't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.(snip)
Acknowldeged, and we can also go as far as to blame the clubs that invite these judges to judge the way that they do.

It's a vicious circle. AKC "approves" the judges, then the clubs choose the judges and do on.

Quote:
Quote:I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?
I bet I could guess the mal especially if it was ranked.

It's hard to find a dog that excells in working and confirmation (and this is what my wife strives for when choosing puppies and potential mates).

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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Can't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.

The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.

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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:09 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

I agree I have seen gsds even bite their handlers doing the down and back and and others do great but guess which one wins the class and breed. Alot I have noticed is really (and should not be this way but it) on the other end of the lead.

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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:14 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Quote:
Originally Posted By: DraggarCan't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.

The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.
I know which show you are talking about that was a big talk and the dog was handled by Jimmy Moses and by what I heard it did get zapped because of the carpet or I believe he tapped the end of its nose (the judge got too close to letting him smell his hand I believe) but it was the judges fault that made the dog do that

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UKC CH Gretchen Julika Little Star, TT, OFA, Cerf, AKC DNA
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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 02:42 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.


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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Amaruq*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.
Static shock is very plausible. Westminster is during the winter in NYC - very high rate of static electricity.

Plus, the rug adds into that.

From what it looked like on TV, the judges hand was very close to the dog's nose.

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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 03:43 PM
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Re: AKC & a can of worms

It's not just this show and it's not just this breed. How many terriers nowadays do you see that looked scared out of their mind? Terriers that were bred to believe they're 200 lb, 36"-at-shoulder dogs loaded with piss, vinegar, and instinct to rock everyone's world are now cringing in fear. And yet, they get put up. It's sad that a dog that comes closest to its breed standard physically but is scared of its own shadow places over one with a few physical faults but stellar temperament, but thank goodness for working and performance-oriented breeding programs! The structure of a dog will not determine if it loves kids, nor will the ear set contribute to whether a dog is fear aggressive, and because we all live in litigious societies temperament should really be placed above all else. What good is a beautiful and healthy dog if it tries to attack everyone it sees or hides behind its owner if a child shows up?

As to the rears, I just don't get it. They walk with their necks and heads straight up and the rears straight down. I really just don't get it.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/55.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/...ee/467782.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/...ee/124262.html

Now these are very nice dogs, great structure, excellent overall look. Showlines, of course, and I'm sure they move nicely. IMO the exaggerated flying trot gait is displeasing but a true, balanced flying trot (one that any well built breed can accomplish) is wonderful to watch. But again, I don't care what it looks like so long it can move efficiently without much movement waste, turn on a dime (how many of these American lines seem to be unable to do that..), be agile as a ferret on crack and have the completely bombproof and amazing temperament that makes the GSD what it is. If all that is there, it is beautiful regardless of lines or type. I have seen dogs of all lines that I like; the common theme is moderation and closeness to the TRUE standard, not the one idealized in the minds of some breeders and judges.

Renji - 6 y/o M GSD x chow rescue


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