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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Local anesthesia?

This is a switch-asking about local anesthesia instead of worrying about a dog being under!

Nina has an odd looking bump/sore on her side. It doesn't look quite like her other sores. I am hoping it just looks different because of location and that it is just deep pyoderma. Anyway, she's getting it removed/taken care of on Tuesday.

We are sending the biopsy to Cornell to the dermatologist there instead of the place we send it (where they called it histiocytosis, which almost killed her due to treatment differences) because I don't think we'd trust that report!

Jokingly, I asked if they could do local and he said yeah. Huh. Anything to be concerned about with that? I am going to ask, I think, about getting wide margins and if they can do that under local.

Also going to have them do bloodwork too. I was thinking of having a chest x-ray done, but may wait for the results before getting that. She had one in December/January that was good.

Anything else?





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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 07:16 PM
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Re: Local anesthesia?

How long would the procedure last? Wouldn't you have to give her a sedative or tranquilizer (like Ace) as well? Or would she really just like there while the procedure went on and on?

I WOULD do a chest xray to rule out heart/lung issues.

Zamboni has that weird eyelashes growing out of her lid thing that beagles get (I can't remember the official name right now). I've thought about doing a local with a light sedative. But we'd be able to laser it, which literally means a couple minutes. I'm not a fan of sedatives for seniors, especially if they have any heart issues. Does Nina?

Anesthesia lightens the load on the heart (then they bring it back up slowly). So, if heart issues are an issue, anesthesia might be a better option. In that case, I would look to bring in a board-certified vet anesthesiologist. This way, the surgeon does the surgeon quickly, while Nina is being monitored by another veterinarian (not a tech). The veterinarian isn't switching back and forth. So the surgery goes faster.

Ok, I didn't answer your question about a local. I never seem to answer your questions directly, do I? I try.

Sorry.



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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 07:31 PM
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Re: Local anesthesia?

I would be worried about doing a lot of cutting under a local. My first GSD was barking at a truck coming in the drive way and both he and the truck slipped on ice and he got a cut on his back from the bumper. Of course it was a Sunday, so call my 24 hour number for the Vet, drive in and drop my dog off. The Vet called me a few hours later and gave me the update, she said she had to knock him out because the area was so bruised he twitched even while under it was so sore. So it would depend if I would be comfortable with a local.


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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Local anesthesia?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: 3K9MomHow long would the procedure last? Wouldn't you have to give her a sedative or tranquilizer (like Ace) as well? Or would she really just like there while the procedure went on and on?

I WOULD do a chest xray to rule out heart/lung issues.

Zamboni has that weird eyelashes growing out of her lid thing that beagles get (I can't remember the official name right now). I've thought about doing a local with a light sedative. But we'd be able to laser it, which literally means a couple minutes. I'm not a fan of sedatives for seniors, especially if they have any heart issues. Does Nina?

Anesthesia lightens the load on the heart (then they bring it back up slowly). So, if heart issues are an issue, anesthesia might be a better option. In that case, I would look to bring in a board-certified vet anesthesiologist. This way, the surgeon does the surgeon quickly, while Nina is being monitored by another veterinarian (not a tech). The veterinarian isn't switching back and forth. So the surgery goes faster.

Ok, I didn't answer your question about a local. I never seem to answer your questions directly, do I? I try.

Sorry.


Thanks, Val, that is what I was wondering. I usually bring a list in with me of concerns, so I will be able to include that I am fine with them using propofol as always if the local isn't going to be enough. I guess they can tell if it's not!!! THAT is good to know.

Now, as to you, 3K9Mom

I am not sure about length of time or if it's more of a biopsy or what, exactly. Nina has gone from being very reactive at the vet office to really seeming to like it there! She stood without restraint for her side being shaved today-such a good girl. The tech mentioned something about that quick out and under stuff-I don't know what it is, but saw them use it on my psycho killer cat that they are afraid of for a blood draw (and I am afraid of her too unless she is being cowtowed to). OPTIONS making me nervous!

She did just have one-chest x-ray, in January, but I may have them do one just in case. Would that show anything about her heart-much?

Entropian! I think.

Nina has no known heart issues. I should have them listen in before surgery. She's there almost every three weeks so some of the routine stuff we don't do. She is also now on thyroid meds. And tramadol. And elavil. Oooh. I should take her off the last two on what? Sunday?

We don't have any anesthesiologists 'round these parts. They use propofol though at my request. They also use all the monitors and the tech that I believe will be helping is Nina's very own personal tech. Well, it seems that way!

She had a biopsy last summer and that was the first time I had ever had her under anesthesia. Reading about anesthesia:
http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=981





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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Local anesthesia?

Crap! Couldn't edit. Maybe they use isoflorine...I am going to have to look on an old bill. I can't remember all these science things!

http://www.research.cornell.edu/care...Ps/CARE104.pdf
Dog Anesthesia

Anesthesia
Q: Is it true that the anesthesia procedure is the riskiest part of surgery? How safe are anesthetics used in veterinary medicine?
http://www.petnews.com/clinicroom6.html

Another:
http://www.petstyle.com/dog/health_w...section=health

Okay, I am done. Worry clock turned off for the night.





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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 09:31 PM
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Re: Local anesthesia?

Quote:
Quote:
OPTIONS making me nervous!
So, I shouldn't say another word?

Ah, I hear I'm "mean" that way.

How old is Miss Nina?

A chest xray will rule out heart and lung issues. Depending on her age, that would give me a great deal of comfort at not too much cost. I take my seniors in for full bloodwork and exams every six months because I think that things change so fast on seniors. So if the last xray was in Jan, well that's about 5 months ago. Normally, I wouldn't put her through the radiation. But if we're looking at surgery. I don't know, it's up to you. As you know, I side so much on the side of caution, that it borders on paranoid.

Is your vet a surgeon or is this your regular vet? Since you can't get a anesthesiologist (which are really hard to find here too. The closest one has to come in from Canada. Sigh!), can you get a board-certified surgeon? They move FAST in surgeries just because that's pretty much all they do. Time is our friend, my friend. The less time under, the less anesthesia. And I do kind of trust a surgeon more to get a lump out with super clean margins. Plus, their techs are more of specialists in anesthesia .

Has Nina had surgery before? Both my surgeons (dental and regular surgeon) say that the best predictor of how a dog will deal with anesthesia is how she's experienced it in the past. If she's never had any problems with it before, then that's an excellent sign. If she comes out of it fast, recovers quickly, no issues, then no problemo. If she tends to have issues, then I'd be more nervous.

Personally, I wouldn't take my dog off any meds until I asked my vet first. The thyroid medicine, I'd be inclined to leave her on. I don't really see a reason to take her off. The tramadol? Eh, depends on the dose, depends how sedating it is on her. Depends on everything else (her bloodwork, heart, lungs, etc). Can she go a day or two without it? (Have you ever missed doses and you know what she's like when she does?) Same with the elavil (which honestly, I don't know anything about)?

A dog that's in pain going INTO surgery is going to be more stressed than one that isn't. Your vet will be able to tell you which meds that he would prefer that you don't give before the surgery. There may be some that he absolutely doesn't want her to have. In between "prefer not" and "absolutely not," you know what Nina *needs.* Yep, that's one of those dang options again.

Ooof. I know you have so much on your mind. Sorry to load more there.

That's what I do best. Just stuff to consider. Anything for Miss Nina.
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 09:37 PM
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Re: Local anesthesia?

One more thing -- both my surgeons tell me -- they both SWEAR that anesthesia these days is so much safer than it used to be even 5-10 years ago. I start getting twitchy as soon as we start talking surgery, and both give me the "calm down, compared to the old anesthesia, this stuff is great. Really great."

If it's so great, they should use it on me when I get so twitchy. Maybe that would convince me. It doesn't. But they are good honest reliable guys. I trust them both completely.

And they're highly experienced board-certified specialists.

And I've never had anything but perfect results in the many surgeries they've done for me.

(I don't just trust because people are nice!)

If it weren't for that dang twitch I get....

So that's something you should know.
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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Local anesthesia?

Definitely mean.

Miss Nina is 11.5 years this week. And looking snazzy with her thyroid enhanced fur. I have a few days to go back and forth on the x-ray. And I will. Like a ping pong ball!

I would say he's just our regular vet, but this is the guy that did Kramer's bloat/torsion/tumor surgery, so he's no regular vet. He actually did all of that in 80 minutes. AND I found out today that the tumor was actually ready to bleed out-as in, when he touched it, it would ooze out blood. But the surgery itself was relatively dry. So I guess that first part means that the tumor was truly hours or days away from taking Kramer and that bloat/torsion was a blessing.

The thyroid is good-I do need to double check though-I know it can do stuff to the heartrate-the elavil is an every other day drug, and I need to check on the tramadol since it's a narcotic lite. Glad I posted-it helps to get me all organized. Plus I think her supplements are fine. No flea or HW until after we are done. I guess she might not make her grooming appt. either if there are stitches (end of month for that).

Yes-she had her spay surgery before I got her, but she was 7 and that is a lot more complicated then and she must have done okay (no bleeding disorders) and she had the biopsy (plus dental, plus hip and chest x-rays) last summer and was defintely okay for that. I agree-that does seem to help.

And I have to agree that the anesthesia is safer, the monitoring equipment better, and like that article says dogs are more at risk by not having surgery that will help them than they are for being harmed by the anesthesia. But-we all know that things can happen in any big or little surgery, so, we worry!

Jeesh-you are mean-when I posted I was more worried about the results of the biopsy that we are going to get than the surgery itself. Now I am worried about both! As it should be!





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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 11:05 PM
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Re: Local anesthesia?

I can't answer your question - sorry. I know Kelly has had a lot of problems recently with any type of invasive procedure but he's the only dog I've ever had to have such a problem.

Wishing you and Nina my best and will be keeping my fingers crossed that there's no problem.

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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-13-2008, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Local anesthesia?

Thanks, Gayle.

I had honestly not heard of doing a local on a dog-I don't know why-I just never thought it was possible. Of course, I pretty much think that when I find out surgeries they do on people with a local.





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