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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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HRD/Blood

I was reading in the thread: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...urt-cases.html that you don't want to train dogs to hit on blood (I think that is what it said). I am curious why?

This topic peaked my interest after an episode yesterday at my club. One of our members got nicked in the hand by her dog while playing and the dog must have hit one of the small arteries. The member bled quite profusely all over the end of our training field and near the jumps. I did not know this because I was out tracking at the time. While playing a bit with Deja after the retrieve she all of a sudden dropped her ball and started scenting the area around the jump. I thought someone had dropped a piece of food, but I had a heck of a time getting her off that scent. Later in another area Elena did the same thing. That is when I found out about how much our club member had bled. Their reaction to the blood was extremely strong so that is why I ask.

Lisa Clark

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 11:30 AM
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Well I would like Renee's explanation but so far mine.

I *do* train on blood but not as frequently as tissues and bone or even dried bone, because I have never been on a call where I am looking for blood. I have worked a dog in a crawlspace where someone bled out on the floor above a decade earlier and the dog went bonkers with the odor which we could not smell.

Dog will, in fact, indicate on blood. To me the biggest problem is many people think spent tampons and rags from bloody noses are all they need to train a cadaver dog and that does not represent the full spectrum of types of remains you need to train on.

My own observation also is that the scent from blood must be more volatiile that than from bones or tissues and encourages the dog to cast about with its nose up and if I am looking for scattered remains, or a buried body, I want the dog to have more focus closer to the ground. So I want to train mostly for what we get calls for.

It must put out a lot of odor because one q-tip with a little blood sure smells a lot. I do think there is a place for specialists on blood - such as detecting blood spatter under bleached and painted surfaces but that is not what I train for.

Another question I would have is how distinctly human is blood odor?

Nancy



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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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I don't do HRD or any SAR but my husband and I call Nikon a blood sucking leech! If you are bleeding, even a little papercut, he will know. DH has a bad habit of wearing shorts to softball and then sliding, so he's always scraped up and Nikon will follow him around trying to lick the wounds. I had to toss him off me a lot recently after my hand got bit bad and had some stitches and a nasty wound for two weeks. I've also seen Nikon be walking through the house and then suddenly stop and glue his nose to the floor, only to look over and find a drop of blood. He found several drops one time and I never did find out who was bleeding or why! Nikon is just drawn to blood and wounds, way more so than any of my other dogs. I have to separate him from Coke when Coke has a hotspot or Nikon will lick it and make it worse.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jocoyn View Post
Another question I would have is how distinctly human is blood odor?
Yes, that would be interesting to know.

Hopefully Renee sees this and has time to answer.

Lisa Clark

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 01:26 PM
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Well, I would think if one spilled cow,pig or whatever blood the dog would have the same reaction. food as well as an anomaly. seriously. I hear folks say that they were starting a pup and it was really fascinated by HR. duh, meat. they dont know the difference until trained to be rewarded to finding it. . throw ground meat out there and the dog would be interested too . The reason I dont train on blood is that human blood can be found anywhere by perfectly legal means. Cuts,etc in cars,homes, yards. When my dog alerts I want to KNOW that the dog is alerting on the odor of human remains PERIOD. If not,the defense can claim that the alert was caused by the client cutting themselves etc just like in the Casey Anthony case. I warned for years that would happen and it did. I also do not do landfills. Same issues. medical type waste and blood. nancy is correct. folks out there training on blood,placenta,lipo and cutical clippings, yes, no kidding and then wonder why the dog missed a full set of remains in the open or in the water. Folks in some cases rely way too much on blood because it is easily obtainable. The lack of proper training aids is something that is going to have to be addressed at some point if authorities want cadaver dogs.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 01:56 PM
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From what I understand, at least here, it is 100% perfectly legal to posses HR as long as it is managed appropriately and disposed of properly.

But getting it is something else. They are probably more concerned about the kind of nonsense you read about in the press when someone abuses human remains (we had a doctor in Charleston who put a foot in a basket for crab bait) and don't want to have a chain of custody link back to them. For us anything is too precious and my training aids are weighed, numbered, and labeled...and looking at them, you would not be able to id them as human. [maybe a forensic anthropologist could, but that is about it]..I tested human blood for infectious diseases in a past life and am pretty comfortable in managing them..

Nancy



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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 02:18 PM
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From what I understand, at least here, it is 100% perfectly legal to posses HR as long as it is managed appropriately and disposed of properly.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

depends on the state you live in. That being said. Obtaining proper aids is a real problem for civilians yet law enforcement want access to the dogs. something needs to be done in order to have proper aids available
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Renee. It was just something I was curious about when I read the thread and then what happened yesterday reminded me to ask.

Lisa Clark

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 05:21 PM
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"I do think there is a place for specialists on blood - such as detecting blood spatter under bleached and painted surfaces but that is not what I train for."

I agree. Forensics is an entirely different field. I'm on blood thinners because stents and other such nonsense. I defy you to bring a dog trained to find blood into my house and NOT find some. While I agree there are areas where training on blood are beneficial, it is not in the area of cadaver or SAR.

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-10-2012, 06:24 PM
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True. The older I get the thinner my skin gets and I can come back from a trek through the briars with blood just running down my arms and dripping off..don't take anticoagulants or anything but between fish oil and and a nightly aspirin. One search my entire forearms were red.

Nancy



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