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Which one is it?

  • Re-Find

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  • Bark&Hold at the Victim

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How many of you do the Re-Find?

4K views 57 replies 7 participants last post by  ladylaw203 
#1 ·
I'm working on Nalas indication and it's actually coming along very well. If it wasn't for the Federation I think I'd actually go with the hold&bark at the subject just to see the differences within the training and the dogs themselves.

I was wondering if any of you does the hold&bark at the victim and how many do the re-find.

Whenever I'm talking to some German SAR People that do the hold&bark at the victim I literally have to justify myself every single time. Since it's a federation rule we don't have a choice.

Just wondering why there is such a rift between hold&bar at the victim and actual re-find...seems kind of dumb when you think about it. Both are proofed methods and both have their pro's and con's but why do you have to justify if you do one or the other?

RH Sport Participants are welcomed to answer as well :)
 
#4 ·
Oh - I think the answer will be colored by the type of searching you do.

No refinds on a rubble pile. Period.
Pros and cons of each in a wilderness setting and that can be influenced by terrain.
If it is a federation rule for you it is kind of a moot point.
 
#6 ·
I would not touch anything other than a smal structural collapse with anything but a dog trained primarily as a disaster dog -- I think you would just do that with a wilderness dog if it was small and there was a chance someone was alive....AND you were not taking too many of your own risks....(which will limit what you put the dog on)...I would say leave the big stuff to those trained for it.
 
#8 ·
My Karo (IRO RH) performs a bark at the victim and will NOT leave the victim. A while back a friend hid for him and I was unaware of the fact that she went to the top of a two and a half story high pile of trees and brush. Karo climbed as far as he could,then burrowed through and popped up next to her barking. They definitely teach the dog to stay with the victim over there. :)
Personally, I do not do refind. I am not losing sight of my dog period so it is not necessary.
 
#9 ·
If your victim is on a ridge and the dog catches scent from a half mile away (yes, we have had that happen) and takes off for the victim what do you do? You can't keep up at that distance-and the bell dies out and you can't hear that either. Then if they are on the ridge how do you know where they are since the sound can get wonky in the mountains?

I think both are valid widely accepted trained types of indications and one may be situationally better than the other and you should use what would be the best choice for your set of conditions.
 
#10 ·
If your victim is on a ridge and the dog catches scent from a half mile away (yes, we have had that happen) and takes off for the victim what do you do? You can't keep up at that distance-and the bell dies out and you can't hear that either. Then if they are on the ridge how do you know where they are since the sound can get wonky in the mountains?

I think both are valid widely accepted trained types of indications and one may be situationally better than the other and you should use what would be the best choice for your set of conditions.

what is your point? my dog has obedience. my dogs do not "just take off" my dogs are never out of my sight nor earshot.. I do not allow it. Not in this part of the country. Same in the disaster scenario. I search hurricane debris. It is dangerous. I have directionals on my dog and solid obedience. If I see him getting toward a part of the debris that is unstable,I stop him. All of these dogs must have rock solid offleash obedience. A refind is no substitute for control:) To each his own with regard to the refind. I just do not care for it personally:)
 
#11 ·
Not trying to argue - not sure how using a recall/refind is related a lack of control and how it has anything to do with directability. It is widely used. for wilderness teams. If the dog is not out of sight, even when it workds towards its target odor, I can see how the B&H would work.

The NY Fed SAR requires recall/refind as do many teams
 
#12 ·
I was just addressing your scenario about the ridge. It implied use of a refind because the dog was out of sight/earshot which is not something I allow. I am aware of its use by civilians. I am simply playing Devil's advocate. I have been handling police service dogs for a long time and an area search is something we do. I do not allow a patrol dog out of my sight. Too much liability because some dork can walk into one's search area and get taken down. I am not ever comfortable with allowing a dog to just take off out of my sight and out of my earshot. The indigineous wildlife here will attack a dog. My dog can find nobody if he is injured and I simply see no reason to allow that to happen. A refind is implying that one's dog is allowed at such a distance that the dog must come back and get the handler. I do not think this is prudent. JMHO
 
#16 ·
It does give a perspective that I had not considered - you can see why B&H could be problematic with a dog working out of sight. I can see how it would be better for a dog within range.

So with a dog working in sight range and, say 80-160 acres to cover. what do you do if the dog does hit odor from a long distance such as half a mile? Do you keep pulling the dog back, do you put it on lead, since it will want to go to source. I know your terrain is different but those distances are plausible here with the mountains. (work the drainages and valleys at night and the ridges during the day ......)
 
#17 ·
I saw a ridge once........LOL Anyway. I work my dogs offleash. I train with a command " too far" They stop,wait for me and we move on. I do this in initial training. It does not take long for them to understand an acceptable distance and they will literally stop,look at me, wait for the dumb two legged human to catch up, then they start working again. It becomes just a matter of fact with them to work at a certain distance. If that makes any sense. :)
 
#18 ·
I know our team teaches refind and were not to happy with me coming from a German team because they do hold & bark. I personally like the refind because to me it seems at that point they really understand the work they are doing or the "game" they are playing. If I were a victim, and a 100 lb GSD (like my Titan) came up to me and just sat there barking.. I might actually run from him or be scared out of my mind. Which is one reason our group does the refind. A friend's group does a hold & bark and it works just as well.

That all being said I am beginner at all this (about 10 months experience total). So that is more of an opinion and an observation. I can see though where one would be preferred over the other in certain situations.
 
#19 ·
They understand the game they are playing by the reward system:)
If the victim is scared,they are found and scared :)
As I have said, to each his own. I am not going to allow my dog out of my sight. I have run into too many situations in the woods to put my dog into a bad situation.
 
#20 ·
Yeah, I hear you Renee, we put a lot of time and money into our dogs. The out of side searching does give me a goosebumps too. My dog ranges very far. So far that she has to travel three or four times between the helper and I. Don't like it...
 
#21 ·
You know I would like to know the real numbers - of dogs being killed by wildlife? I have known of several FEMA dogs who died a rebar death. Some dogs who have been hit by cars (which is why you set up training carefully and have people on the streets during a search).....but we have coyotes big time and black bears and supposedly panthers and I don't know anyone who has lost a dog to these things.

I honestly think if my dog runs up to some hunter (we have a lot) and starts barking, he is going to get shot in these parts. More worried about the two legged critters than anything else.

We tell people the risks up front. Dogs get bit by snakes 20 feet from you. (Just had a dog on another dog take a Cottonmouth bite, fortunately went through the paw and out the other side-vet said she would have been a goner if it had not been the case)---actually snake bites are pretty common in general compared to other things.

I think the indication seems to boil down to whether or not the dog is out of visual range. I had always been told by some of the old-timers to never slow down a dog who was in scent. The expectation was the dog hits the odor they go to source and you don't exist until they get there then bring you back. I do see some inefficiencies in that to be sure but it works and has around here and a lot of places for decades. I am stating that as a mindset - what you do with it is your own. What do the NY FED SAR folks say? Don't even the Eurpeans have a bringsel indication? Isnt that the same approach as recall/refind to some extent (dog still has to get you back there)

Had not really questioned it and it is not really an issue while you are scanning and the dog is in visual/auditory range.
 
#28 ·
i have nothing against the re-find at all. I'd just like to see the differences between the re-find and h&b. The difference in training, the difference it makes in the field.

Well, one person insists on:

Re-find On Rubble Piles
Re-find with Cadaver
Dog goes into a building ALONE without the handler, if you do go in you suck as a handler...

If you grid with your dog you suck. If you count paces you suck, if you go with your dog into the building you suck...!
 
#24 · (Edited)
Refind. For an airscent dog in the types of terrain that we have to search in, bark and hold is not a realistic alternative. My dog ranges out of sight and sound and checks back with me periodically. On long refinds he may shuttle between the victim and me a few times and I like that behavior. It works great with moving subjects, each refind is to a slightly different location. That makes me wonder what a bark and hold trained dog would do with a moving subject. Bark and follow? Bark and body block? That would be fun to watch :).

I was wondering if any of you does the hold&bark at the victim and how many do the re-find.
 
#27 ·
Refind. For an airscent dog in the types of terrain that we have to search in, bark and hold is not a realistic alternative. My dog ranges out of sight and sound and checks back with me periodically. On long refinds he may shuttle between the victim and me a few times and I like that behavior. It works great with moving subjects, each refind is to a slightly different location. That makes me wonder what a bark and hold trained dog would do with a moving subject. Bark and follow? Bark and body block? That would be fun to watch :).

Downsides to everything. If a subject is moving,while you dog is a long way from you,subject moves and your dog has to keep finding him,then running back to you, then find him again, yadda yadda.
 
#29 ·
Well, I must say when I am working a dog I am going to be reading that dog and not counting my steps. Between a GPS and a map and compass (if the GPS fails) I can figure out where I am.

Hard to understand who would be telling you these things and the context in which they were told. I usually don't grid a dog quite the same way I would grid a human grid team...I would be working off of features that could catch or carry odor.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I am not counting paces either even though I should. Especially since I have to learn the difference between 300ft and 300 meters ;) but I can do that outside the K9 Training.
As for gridding, I learned to start with a search tactic and follow it through no matter how many times the wind changes. Eventually the dog will pick up scent.

It was in regards to another team. A good team with multiple finds. I was told not to train with them because they suck and those were some of the given reasons. I don't believe it. Their training is well structured, they train a heck of a lot. They have multiple finds, very well bred and driven dogs. From what I can see they really know their stuff. I may not be experienced in SAR itself but I know well structured and planned through training when I see it, good dogs and handlers when I see them. These guys ROCK!
 
#38 ·
What I have seen with live find dogs and a deceased person has been a readable change of behavior......Anymore the HRD dogs go to EVERY search and are on standby if a dog handler indicates a different behavior they either know from experience or cannot explain because they have not had that exposure.

Learned that after we went to a search as support for another team, reported the behavior, did not have my HRD dog with me (live search) and a ground team found the body the next day within 100 yards of where we told them we would deploy an HR dog.

Never again. The dog goes on ALL searches. We are going to start doing more night cadaver training though. We normally do NOT work the HR dogs at night for several reasons, but some searches call for it. (We recently did a shoreline on a search where a team dog was picking up scent at night) we got a negative - the live child was found the next day about a mile in the opposite direction.
 
#46 ·
When I give seminar. I teach the legal aspects as well as the courtoom and HOW to testify.
What I reccomend to you however, is to get Terry Fleck to give a class.

As far as cops not knowing about SAR. How stupid. We have been finding folks long before civilains knew what SAR was. It is our job. And, finding a crook with a dog is not different from SAR except for the bitework portion. Scent work,trailing is the same.

Now what are you talking about with regard to sport vs SAR?

As far as you as a civilian goes. As long as YOU are deployed by a law enforcement agency, legally, you are ok. Now fast forward to court a civilian can flat screw up a case. It has happened.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Now what are you talking about with regard to sport vs SAR?
Same thing as with Cops. Sport isn't SAR. Sport people don't know squat about SAR K9 handling and it's not the "real world" thing and they don't safe people. At least that is what I've been told.

I've seen it with my own eyes that quite a few good Schutzhund Handlers can take their dog and train it within half a year/year to do SAR simply because they know how to work a dog effectively which is something I am missing with a lot of what I've seen out here and which is slowly turning around.

In Sport you have guidance, you have a training director that guides you through the process. Here you were expected to do it yourself without any kind or form of help and then you had an "evaluation" once a month.

It has changed within the last year because my team mate and I wanted that change. We pushed for obedience, we pushed for that change and meanwhile SHE is the new Coordinator. There is more structure in the training, the training is not just one or two hours anymore.

That's another thing I was told. You don't do the mock searches. Having a dog do 4-5 hour searches in training is a waste of time because you build that with walks, bike-riding and agility. But these kind of mock searches are a waste of time and you keep it short and motivational. Yes, physical strength is build outside. But what about the psychological and emotional stress of the dog? That can't be build via bike riding or agility or long walks.
 
#51 ·
Same thing as with Cops. Sport isn't SAR. Sport people don't know squat about SAR K9 handling and it's not the "real world" thing and they don't safe people. At least that is what I've been told.

I've seen it with my own eyes that quite a few good Schutzhund Handlers can take their dog and train it within half a year/year to do SAR simply because they know how to work a dog effectively which is something I am missing with a lot of what I've seen out here and which is slowly turning around.

In Sport you have guidance, you have a training director that guides you through the process. Here you were expected to do it yourself without any kind or form of help and then you had an "evaluation" once a month.

It has changed within the last year because my team mate and I wanted that change. We pushed for obedience, we pushed for that change and meanwhile SHE is the new Coordinator. There is more structure in the training, the training is not just one or two hours anymore.

That's another thing I was told. You don't do the mock searches. Having a dog do 4-5 hour searches in training is a waste of time because you build that with walks, bike-riding and agility. But these kind of mock searches are a waste of time and you keep it short and motivational. Yes, physical strength is build outside. But what about the psychological and emotional stress of the dog? That can't be build via bike riding or agility or long walks.
Oh well. It always amazes me that folks put down something that they never participated in . Defense tactic:) As far as mock searches. THAT is called maintenance training. Train as you work,work as you train. This happens with narc dog and bomb dog handlers too. Folks set up little easy "pattern" training maintenance training and in the real world of a long laborious search the dog shuts down or starts false alerting because that "internal clock" went off with no reward. Diversity of training is a necessity. There is a reason we cops train that way.....:)
 
#49 ·
My observations on cross trained dogs is that I HAVE seen a few that are properly trained and maintained in both disciplines and are proficient in both....excellent dogs, excellent handlers with the time to invest in maintaining both.

Many of these dogs are, I think, better than mediocre single purpose dogs.

For me, I will only do one discipline as I honestly think it is better for the dog (No question on a search as to what is expected) and if I have extra time I would rather spend it honing our ONE discipline than having to split between two.

The biggest issue I have see with live find dogs trained in HR has been that a 6 month old vial of bloody guaze with some bones from the bone room is not equal to a full size, much more recently deceased body.

I just took advantage of the experience (this am) of getting to work a vehicle (first I had to find the vehicle with the dog and it was not obvious from outside) in a lot where a man had been stabbed and bled out.

Great experience because that amount of scent (and the amount of time - 2 weeks) coming from a vehicle was very different than a typical training aid. I did cut him off lead as he started pulling to it from 30 feet away and he had a hard time making up his mind as he went crazy all over the car-including the engine compartment and the trunk.

He did finally focus in and indicate on a door seam and, sure enough, that door (the carpeted are inside the door next to the rocker panel, where I could not see) was the one where the most blood had pooled..
 
#52 ·
Many of these dogs are, I think, better than mediocre single purpose dogs.

For me, I will only do one discipline as I honestly think it is better for the dog (No question on a search as to what is expected) and if I have extra time I would rather spend it honing our ONE discipline than having to split between two.

The biggest issue I have see with live find dogs trained in HR has been that a 6 month old vial of bloody guaze with some bones from the bone room is not equal to a full size, much more recently deceased body.

*******************************************

Exactly. Thresholds again :)
 
#54 ·
One thing we do after a search is debrief separately as a team and figure out what we learned from it. What we did right and what we could do better. We have come up with some good training scenarios for dementia patients and kids that we could not have imagined in our own logical heads.

I think my suggestion for cadaver 2nd is because it is a very delicate area and learning the proper demeanor and the legal stuff takes time..I know there is much more I have to learn and am glad we make every effort to have a police officer flank us on cadaver searches, particularly if it is likely to be a criminal case. It is also good to have a better handle on scent theory becuase bodies underwater and underground as well as spread all over the place (scattered bones, for example) add a different level of complexity to the standard air scent problem...
 
#56 ·
It is also good to have a better handle on scent theory becuase bodies underwater and underground as well as spread all over the place (scattered bones, for example) add a different level of complexity to the standard air scent problem...
Yep. Recovery we just had in the area was disarticulated due to animals and heavy equipment that had been working the area prior to recovery. We had several teams and we worked for hours switching off . 99% recovery. Pretty good considering the circumstances.
 
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