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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
I think many would agree that the jargon used to discuss aggression, drives, etc. in dogs is not known for its congruence. Also, I believe drives/behaviors overlap and the constructs we use to describe a dog's behavior have limitations and we can only speculate based on experience, what a dog is feeling, which would reflect his drive states. When I was referring to my dog, I can see why the term defensive aggression is not fully accurate and there could be an element of active aggression, since the dog is not being threatened and shows no avoidance, outs quickly and is forward. Just to muddy the water, Winkler uses the term active defensive aggression. He says it is a reactive form of aggression, because all defensive aggression is reactive, but is strong, powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. But he kind of contradicts himself when he says defensive aggression is always triggered by worry and then says with active defensive aggression, "offense is the best defense." He also sees social aggression as a very specific trait where a dog with true social aggression will bite anyone outside of his pack because they are outside the pack and defensive aggression is not part of social aggression. That doesn't describe my dog. He is generally social. For a while, I thought he might end up being the type of dog you could take out of his crate and walk away with, but with maturity, that is not the case at all. I do think the dog is starting the fight with the helper because, as I said, the decoy is not agitating the dog in any way, and if I out him, he stares the decoy in the eyes and is eager to reengage. What I see on the bicep bite is a combination of frustration, anger and some stress, which is fading, because the dog is young and has not fully learned what to do during the fight. His grips are very full, hard and don't shift, which tells me there is confidence behind them and I see improvement with each session, so the dog is working through any uncertainty he might be experiencing. Also, a properly socialized dog tends to have some natural inhibition to bite a human because people are seen as sort of an adoptive relative. Once the taboo of biting is overcome via training, that uncertainty goes away and becomes a behavior the dog looks forward to voluntarily do, rather than feeling he has to do it out of self preservation. The self defense is more of a purer form of defensive aggression, and that is not what I am seeing.
Chip, food for thought,.....Some of the great champions in sports relate to us that they always have butterflies ( a sign of stress or worry) before their event. Other champions relate they are cool as the other side of the pillow befor an event.
Should we look critically at the butterfly CHAMPIONS. Should we try to make him calm internally before the event. Or should we accept that excellent performance can come from many different bases or foundations, and sometimes labeling leads to overreaching or over training for performance, and eventually a decline. Just food for thought.

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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:01 AM
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You haven't trained for real life until you have trained scared. That is something Ive been told and believe. Scared doesn't have to be for your life for real. It could be competition anxiety. The endorphins are similar. Dog probably picks up on it too. Even other people can smell fear and/or anxiety on other people. I'd dare to say a dog that keeps it together and gets it down while his handler is jelly in front of a crowd speaks well of the dog's genetic foundation.

One thing I like about my dog is he blows off my mistakes. And I have made a lot of them. His protection and OB during protection is really REALLY good. And while his engagement with me is good, for the regular OB he is crooked, he has zero ass end awareness on the field and in life. It's all my fault and inexperience. But when I get the experience and do apply it he goes with it and forgets yesterday. For instance...I tried teaching him dumbells by ....modelling the behavior. And it somewhat worked? Well we are trying it properly now. Maybe I work from home too much.

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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:07 AM
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You make a good point Cliff. I always got butterflies when I played sports and it was a combination of excitement and a little stress, which quickly faded once the game began and added adrenaline to help my performance. I'm not sure what you mean by overtraining based on labeling. I am not intervening when my dog is vocal on the bite, because his grips and other behaviors tell me he is not overly stressed. He also has some anger when biting. It is just a matter of repetition, reinforcing a pushing bite, and letting the dog figure it out by gaining experience and more confidence with maturity. This dog clearly enjoys the fight.
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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:21 AM
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CometDog,
A good way to clean up crooked heeling, static heel position and poor ass end awareness is to use food with your dog in a sit facing you. With the leash in your right hand and about a foot away from the collar on the leash, and multiple pieces of food in your left hand, call the dog to heel while pulling the leash to the right creating opposition reflex. Keep a constant pressure and not a correction.This should trigger the dog to pull and flip into heel. Only reward correct position and continue to adjust the opposition reflex to get the dog in the correct position rather than you moving so that the dog is correct. Once that is down, work on quarter pivots to the left. Do a ton of this until the dog becomes solid. You can later go to a ball on a string and free the dog for correct position by tossing the ball to the left to prevent the dog from starting to forge when heeling. Food is best to start because you can use continuous reinforcement without stopping the exercise. As the dog improves, use opposition reflex from various angles, take a sidestep to the right and command heel, a step back, a step forward, etc.
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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
CometDog,
A good way to clean up crooked heeling, static heel position and poor ass end awareness is to use food with your dog in a sit facing you. With the leash in your right hand and about a foot away from the collar on the leash, and multiple pieces of food in your left hand, call the dog to heel while pulling the leash to the right creating opposition reflex. Keep a constant pressure and not a correction.This should trigger the dog to pull and flip into heel. Only reward correct position and continue to adjust the opposition reflex to get the dog in the correct position rather than you moving so that the dog is correct. Once that is down, work on quarter pivots to the left. Do a ton of this until the dog becomes solid. You can later go to a ball on a string and free the dog for correct position by tossing the ball to the left to prevent the dog from starting to forge when heeling. Food is best to start because you can use continuous reinforcement without stopping the exercise. As the dog improves, use opposition reflex from various angles, take a sidestep to the right and command heel, a step back, a step forward, etc.
Thank you! We did just go back to food for some things. I am going to try the leash technique you describe. We tried a bowl with his huge body and 95lbs. It reminded me of the scene in Harry and The Hendersons where they taught Bigfoot to sit and he was collapsing all the furniture. The rubber bowls kept caving lol

A lot of the problem admittedly is I did not care if he was a little crooked. I should have cared. We will continue to work on it though for sure.

I see American Schutzhund has a Beginning Detection Work event I would love to try in May. Our IGP Tracking is still a work in progress though. I dont want to confuse him any more than I already have in life. But, being a realist in hobby it really does appeal to me more than footstep tracking. His sire was a prolific tracker/trailer. He definitely got his sire's nose for it.

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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:32 AM
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I don't know anything about your dog Chip. I simply stated that perhaps you were using the wrong term.
As for social aggression, I've owned dogs like Armin talks about in his descriptions. However, social aggression is not an all or nothing. Dogs have it to varying degrees, although I will say the dogs nowadays, have much less of it. It's more a combination of high prey drive and a little weakness in the nerves that I see more often now. Yes, there are still decent dogs but they are different dogs than what we saw years ago. Of course, all the people who have done it five years say those dogs were no good. They were fortunate those dogs existed and the sport operated the way it did. Because otherwise, there would be nothing left at all.
We're headed there. Again, we are on the same trajectory as the show dogs. In another 10 years we can see where it's at unless some major intervention takes place and more people actually learn about the dogs themselves and what drives they should be working in during protection work. Oh and maybe what actual obedience is. Because right now it's more like a series of tricks achieved with electric collars. When you see an activity dominated by one device, also used to stimulate dogs in protection work… It makes you wonder if any type of sport could change where we are headed.


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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:55 AM
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Anne,
I agree that I was probably using the wrong term and that active aggression is more accurate. I also agree that Armin uses a narrow description of social aggression. Here is a link to my dog's pedigree.
Litter from Xly Z Canczech and Bjori Soky-Pe
You see Olex in the 4th generation and his maternal grandsire was Yoschy. While his genetic contribution is small, my understanding is that he was known for having and producing active aggression. To me, it is a really interesting pedigree because it goes back to so many very good dogs from the past, including quality dogs from West German, Czech/Slovak and DDR lines. The sire and the sire's dam are not titled, but I have seen numerous videos of them and they are very good dogs to my eye. Here is a short video of the sire which speaks to his nerves IMO.
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Last edited by Chip Blasiole; 04-09-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:06 PM
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Here is video of the sire's dam, who was also untitled. The rest of the dogs in the pedigree either have schH/IPO, SVV or ZVV titles.
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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:53 PM
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^ THAT is a nice female. Love her build.

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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:58 PM
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Some common ancestry with my dog. He is 3-5 on Nike and also has Hoky 3rd gen.
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