American Schutzhund - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 47Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 10:53 AM
Elite Member
 
CometDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 1,492
Quoting Chip because my quote button wont work..

"A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper. I don't think IPO, comes close to providing that opportunity or really wants that kind of dog in the sport."

That describes my dog. As he ages to 2 and is being worked properly I can see the seriousness in there. I am attracted to PSA more so than IPO..I am a Self Defense instructor and civilian firearms instructor so my interest lies in "real" and scenarios rather than routines. However, I am not sure I want to or need to tickle that part of my dog. Maybe in the future, maybe with a future dog. And I know who I would use and not use. For now I'm happy letting him burn some energy and instinct on a sleeve for fun. We are never going to look sporty doing it lol "Not A Points Dog" In other words regardless of the pedigree/title value of it I would love to see the structure of what Debbie is putting together.

Valor 6/3/17
CGC BH AD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- 6/3/17
Blitzen 2/21/19

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CometDog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 10:59 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 693
My dog leans more to the defensive side, but has a good threshold for defense. He doesn't go around lighting up around everybody and can be approached by people. And his obedience in both protection and PSA obedience exercises is accurate and fast and I think it all has to do with the proper foundation and putting in the tedious time to teach and expect a certain level of precision, attention, speed and accuracy.
CometDog likes this.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 11:08 AM
Elite Member
 
CometDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 1,492
And what I meant by sport ruins everything...I did not phrase it right or nicely I suppose. The evolution of a structured activity that is meant to be a real test into "sport" for the masses, will always over the fullness of time negate it's value as a real world test. It nearly has to, in order to continue to grow by appealing to the masses.

People..now people always ruin everything. There is a societal shift towards being thinned skin. It has permeated every physical performance hobby I am involved with. I've walked off mats and ranges after a failure and felt stronger and more determined to fix that. You dont see that a lot anymore. Failing up with dignity is a concept that is going the way of the Dodo. You still that grit and determination of course..but the average participant expects a lot more passes and hand holding these days. Then you wind up worrying about boo boos and hurt feelings and un awarded trophies affecting attendance. Then the rules get modified to make it a more level field. Then other aspects that are easier to achieve with a dog with less than stellar nerves like flash and speed evolve into desirable for points. Then the concept of "points dogs" and the ability of a handler to "hide a dogs nerves" is actually a thing. Eh, you cant have all that without becoming a sport that mimics real life rather than tests for it.
cliffson1 likes this.

Valor 6/3/17
CGC BH AD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- 6/3/17
Blitzen 2/21/19

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by CometDog; 04-04-2019 at 11:11 AM.
CometDog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 11:10 AM
Elite Member
 
CometDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
My dog leans more to the defensive side, but has a good threshold for defense. He doesn't go around lighting up around everybody and can be approached by people. And his obedience in both protection and PSA obedience exercises is accurate and fast and I think it all has to do with the proper foundation and putting in the tedious time to teach and expect a certain level of precision, attention, speed and accuracy.
We are there too. Except for fast and we have not tried PSA. It took a specific type of work to get where we are. I'm grateful I was surrounded by people who recognized it for what it was and steered me the right way. Thank goodness for breed specific mentors.

Valor 6/3/17
CGC BH AD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- 6/3/17
Blitzen 2/21/19

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CometDog is offline  
post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 12:06 PM
dOg
Elite Member
 
dOg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MItten
Posts: 1,888
thanks for the background


it does remind me of the brief period where SDA and UKC had a venue for protection...


and while it may be sport made of a more serious leo endeavor dilluted it, if anything ruins stuff, it's politics, and so if this new effort is all breed, doesn't care wtf the SV thinks, I'm all for it!!!


dogbyte, onyx'girl and CometDog like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dOg is offline  
post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 12:21 PM
Elite Member
 
CometDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by dOg View Post
thanks for the background


it does remind me of the brief period where SDA and UKC had a venue for protection...


and while it may be sport made of a more serious leo endeavor dilluted it, if anything ruins stuff, it's politics, and so if this new effort is all breed, doesn't care wtf the SV thinks, I'm all for it!!!


Amen to that!

Valor 6/3/17
CGC BH AD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- 6/3/17
Blitzen 2/21/19

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CometDog is offline  
post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
I wouldn't say sport ruins everything. I think different protection sports can have more of a positive or negative impact on what is considered a successful dog at a sport, then, what type of dog is bred for and lastly the type of training for a protection sport. IMO, the majority of clubs training have poor quality training and don't know how to correctly build a dog and teach him how to work through the stress of bite work. Also, many sport trainers "beg" the dog to bite which sets up a foundation for failure in terms of correct bite work. In IPO, the stress of bite work has all been removed. Being a sleeve sport is a factor. Dogs always know when there is equipment, such as with hidden sleeves and bite suits, but in suit sports, with the right decoy wearing the right suit, a dog learns the suit is an extension of the decoy more so than being a piece of equipment. Then the exercises in IPO are exactly the same every time, so there is no challenge after a while, for a good dog. It becomes more of a gymnastics show than a test of a dog's aggression and confidence. Also, a bicep bite is more stressful to a dog than a forearm bite on a sleeve. I know there is a discussion on another forum criticizing the bicep bite in terms of police apprehension or PP, but if you are not training a police dog or PP, it is a useful way to challenge a dog. A lot also depends on the balance of a dog's prey and defense. IPO really only needs and tests for prey IMO. A dog that is more on the defensive side is more challenging to train and often doesn't match up well for the sport of IPO, so you end up losing dogs being bred for some defensive aggression. Defensive aggression involves fear and stress and the dog has to be taught what he needs to do to work through those feelings and IPO doesn't provide for that and there is a woeful lack of decoys who know how to teach a dog how to work through the stress of a dog that tends to be more defensive. Correctly done and with the right kind of defensive aggression, you can end up with a very serious dog who is truly a man stopper. I don't think IPO, comes close to providing that opportunity or really wants that kind of dog in the sport. I don't know the changes proposed for American schutzhund, but my sense is that they will be lacking still.
No, sport doesn’t ruin everything, and there are some great things about sport...in particular the foundation work that is done with the dogs. But that work isn’t for points, once the focus starts on maximizing points, by any means necessary, then things change.
Actually, if sport and show were in the proper place of importance, I have no problem with them at all. But they have become the epitome of what should be....and specialization can never lead to versatility! New folks remember that!
It’s no different than many breeders today, who put more emphasis on breeding for the public than breeding for the standard. The same applies to show and sport. The reputable breeders place more importance on the title or the rating than the suitability of a given dog. And I’m talking about experienced folks who should be able to identify the better dog.
Folks, are seeking perfection in dogs and litters which sometimes cause overthinking and narrowing of gene pool, but forgetting that consistency and versatility are the hallmark of the breed.
At the end of the day, it’s not about bashing sport or show, but rather about are the things Debbie and Jerry are seeking are valuable AND needed in the breed....if they are and you are a true steward of the breed you put aside feelings and support the things they say you know is true or neede.
pam, car2ner and CometDog like this.

Last edited by cliffson1; 04-04-2019 at 04:54 PM.
cliffson1 is offline  
post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 07:06 AM
Knighted Member
 
cdwoodcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,363
From what I have read and seen I like it. I like the fact that there isn't footstep tracking. I despise footstep tracking. My dog does it but not with near the intensity or joy she gets from article searches or man trailing. It would have been nice if they had made certified SAR dogs exempt from their scent work. Just counted their certification as the article or scent detection phase of the program. Will probably wait it out and see where it goes. In the meantime I will renew my USCA membership and title my dog in that venue for now.
CometDog likes this.

Athena BH, Rosko BH
I MAY NOT BE THERE YET. BUT, I AM CLOSER THAN I WAS YESTERDAY.
cdwoodcox is offline  
post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 07:31 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
No, sport doesn’t ruin everything, and there are some great things about sport...in particular the foundation work that is done with the dogs. But that work isn’t for points, once the focus starts on maximizing points, by any means necessary, then things change...

I think the keys words in your statement are, "by any means necessary." I don't know if you want to clarify that or not, but I'll say there is a difference in fine tuning your training approach and by putting in the time, for example, to get faster sits and downs, or focused heeling that isn't affected by distractions, compared to using harsh or abusive approaches. Trying to get maximum points in sports is a personal choice and depends if the dog is likely genetically capable to obtain a certain level and if the handler and people helping the handler are able to bring a dog to his genetic potential. Saying that, the genetic potential resulting in higher points doesn't necessarily correlate with a better working dog necessarily, but sometimes it can. And the reason people generally compete in any sport is to win. If you have to go to extremes or very unnatural training approaches, you get further away from what the dog is vs. how he has been trained.
CometDog likes this.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
I think the keys words in your statement are, "by any means necessary." I don't know if you want to clarify that or not, but I'll say there is a difference in fine tuning your training approach and by putting in the time, for example, to get faster sits and downs, or focused heeling that isn't affected by distractions, compared to using harsh or abusive approaches. Trying to get maximum points in sports is a personal choice and depends if the dog is likely genetically capable to obtain a certain level and if the handler and people helping the handler are able to bring a dog to his genetic potential. Saying that, the genetic potential resulting in higher points doesn't necessarily correlate with a better working dog necessarily, but sometimes it can. And the reason people generally compete in any sport is to win. If you have to go to extremes or very unnatural training approaches, you get further away from what the dog is vs. how he has been trained.
Chip, I have no problem with folks training their dog to their potential or seeking to win, or fine tuning their dog. These are givens and nothing wrong with them. I’m talking about the the “ importance” that people put on the titles, the ratings, the singular aspects of a dog,( ie angulation, grips, gait, focused heel ) to determine important breeding decisions and breed assessments. I’m talking about the lack of versatility and the preponderance of specialization.
Today, in LE work more dogs have environmental issues or weaknesses than ever been seen before. So many GS so unsure as soon as they approach something new, or looks daunting, or shaky footing,etc.....why. Rare anymore is the dog that confidently approaches as escalator, or fire escape, or swaying bridge, or bridge period, etc....yet other dogs have no problems with these things. This unsureness, except under ideal conditions, is the result of something, because in years past the sureness of a GS was just like the sureness of many regular mixed breed dogs. We have lost something intangible in our quest for perfection in show, sport, and personal likes. Of course people in these venues won’t admit it, ( of course when too close to something sometimes you don’t see, or maybe the status of the trophies, money, or personal adoration is too much to resist) , but user folks in SAR, LE, military, etc definitely see the trend and thus the proliferation of other breeds for many of these jobs.
But I know I’m preaching into the wind, lol, but as 10 years turns into 20 years turns into even more the truth is inescapable. I walked away from the American Show world in 1975 and felt these dogs were traveling in a direction that they would eventually not be suitable for strenuous work, I walked away from the German Show world in early 90s and felt that this dog was traveling in a direction that they would eventually not be suitable for strenuous work, by 2010, I was seeing the same pattern with sport work. Not in the same ways as other two because one specializes in performance while the other two in structure, yet in principle that the specialization of sport was rendering the breed lacking in versatility of which they were created to be.
Every couple years, I reinstate my strong feelings on this subject, I’m through now, and maybe I’m missing the boat and people aren’t seeing what I see....time tells all!
dogbyte, pam, car2ner and 2 others like this.

Last edited by cliffson1; 04-05-2019 at 08:16 AM.
cliffson1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What line does she look like? Niexist The Breed Standard 58 07-09-2016 03:16 PM
Schutzhund and the novice handler blackshep Schutzhund/IPO Training 33 11-13-2012 11:09 AM
2008 Events for Colorado Alpine Schutzhund Club mnm Events & Club Info 0 01-11-2008 01:32 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome