LE dogs-Why not go for the gun arm? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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LE dogs-Why not go for the gun arm?

I started a thread on another Cezch border guard board titled Why not attack the gun arm? I looks to me like sport dog people are training their dogs to go for the sleeve arm that is offered to them. This can lead to their death in a real fight with an armed bad guy who then shoots or stabs them with the other hand. So why not teach them to go for the weapon arm instead of teaching them not to regrip?
As it turns out this is done. Here is a great video
https://www.instagram.com/p/BCljuaYC...eo_watch_again
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 12:56 PM
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This is also explained pretty well on the Working Dog Radio podcast ; episode 31 Ted and Eric Rant. And they get pretty passionate about why this is a dumb idea.
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 01:38 PM
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Just curious but are you also someone who thinks officers should shoot the bad guy in the arm or the leg?
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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To whom are you speaking? Although I myself, as a nurse, would be inclined to shoot a bad guy in the leg, apply a tournquet and call 911, I have been instructed by many LE and others to aim for center mass in a self defense situation.

When someone is brandishing a gun aiming at police or others and/or not following instructions to drop the gun then yes I think they should aim for center mass. If bad guy was pointing a gun at me I would aim for center mass. It hurts me to say this and I try not to think about it.

Personally, I took a vow to first do no harm. But I allow myself three reasons to do otherwise. 1. Self Defense, all creatures have this right. 2. To survive. I am a vegetarian but if I were in a plane crash in Alaska I would live on lemmings. 3. To put an animal out of its misery.

I have been reading lately about so many gallant police dogs that were killed by criminals with guns or knives. So I have seen Schutzhund and IPO exibits where the handlers offer the dog a bite on the sleeve and they loose points for letting go and regripping, when in a real fight the dog could be killed by a gun or knife held in the other hand. That why I asked some people on another board wo train LE and PPD and was shown this link.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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This is also explained pretty well on the Working Dog Radio podcast ; episode 31 Ted and Eric Rant. And they get pretty passionate about why this is a dumb idea.
Thanks. Where can this broadcast be found?

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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 02:57 PM
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We teach our dogs to target the center mass of the body part that they can get. Real K-9 trainers do not teach a dog to target the “weapon hand.” I spend a lot of time training our dogs to “push in” to a bite. To engage with power and to bite and hold. This is the proper way to train a patrol dog. The dog must be taught to push in to the bite. Some dogs have this genetically, some need to be taught how to target and how to “push in.”

That video posted here is ok, but definitely not how I would train a dog to engage or fight. To say that dogs already “know how to bite” is not accurate. The guys in that video are mistaken on that point. That is like saying everyone knows how to punch or kick and there is no need to teach a boxer or a martial artist how to punch. That mentality would say all you need to teach a boxer is how to block. If you know anything about martial arts or boxing you would understand how wrong their statement is.

Unlike, the “experts” on some other forums that in reality do not train or work dogs in a real world environment, some of us do and understand what is involved in training a dog to fight for real and engage a suspect.

What I have found works best in the real world when a dog engages a suspect is commitment, pain compliance, speed and a powerful bite. What you saw in the video is poor training, IMHO. That kind of training will get a dog hurt, other cops bit and the dog will never be as effective as he can be.

Nursebushop, please be careful with some of the information that you get from other forums. I’m pretty sure there are no active K-9 handlers on the forum you mentioned. Actually, there are few people, if any on that forum that actually train dogs or ever worked a dog in the street. There information is anecdotal at best and often third hand based on watching videos on YouTube.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 03:52 PM
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I got a dog out there, who is retired now, who was on the Federal Fugitive Task Force (hope I got the name right). He and his owner, both retired now. But he told me that they like to use his dog because he air scents, vacuum scents I think he called it. But anyway, he said that sometimes a perp can come up from behind the dog when they are ground scenting. He told me about a dog, Killer who was dispatched a little ahead of his dog, and the dog was shot three times. When Morgan got to him, he missed the shoulder and brought him down with the neck. He was not shot (which is why I am not breeding for police dogs, I am not against k9s, but I hate to think of them getting killed like Killer did).

At a dog show, my club, which usually recognizes local k9s and their handlers, they did a demo, and they explained that the dog is trained to grab extremities. A dog is not considered lethal, though the dog above did get the jugular and if they didn't riddle the guy with bullets, that probably would have killed him. You can call a dog off or back, you cannot call back a bullet.

The idea of shooting a guy in the leg is ludicrous because if you are a good guy, you owe it to your family, folks, partner and community to come home at the end of the shift. If someone is pointing a gun at you, then you need to shoot to stop the threat, not to pick out lesser body parts to maim the guy long enough to get the gun away from him.
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Slambunk, do you agree there is a difference between 'sport' dogs and working military and police dogs? The schutzhunds trials I see wagging their tails. They seem to be in prey drive. As far as members of that forum go, sure there are interested inexperienced members such as myself. But there are also real trainers from all over the world as I have seen their videos posted there. Sure, there are many opinions of dogs and dog training. I like the forum because it is small and also other subjects are discussed.

My own dog is a working ranch dog of WGSLs and schutzhunds. I don't know if she would actually bite anyone but she has acted like she would, dragging me forward toward the threat with aggressive barking. So far that is all it takes.

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He made and loveth All.

Last edited by Nurse Bishop; 10-14-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 04:05 PM
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The question is why sport people don't train the dog to target the weapon arm?

1. Where in any sport will the helper have a weapon?
2. targeting the sleeve and maintaining grip is testing the grip and the willingness to bite and stay on the bite.
3. at what point will a sport dog engage in a real fight with a criminal?
4. for the vast majority of us, our sport dogs are our pets. The likelihood of us actually sending our dogs in to harms way is pretty slim.
5. the question is actually irrelevant to IPO .




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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-14-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Bishop View Post
Thanks. Where can this broadcast be found?
I use Player FM to listen to podcasts on my phone while out walking the dogs. I don't know which other podcast apps might carry it. You can also find them here :

Working Dog Radio ? Broadcasting The Bite

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