A Few Things I have Heard or Read.. - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
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A Few Things I have Heard or Read..

What is the difference between IPO and Schutzhund if any? I have heard/read that Schutzhund is for GSDS and IPO is for all breeds. I have heard/read that Schutzhund was changed to IPO because of the image of teaching a dog to bite, I have heard/read they are one in the same. Can anyone answer correctly? Or is it a mishmash of all the info?

I heard/read that we no longer have a word to send them to bite. We had protection trained dogs when I was little and my adult family used Fass! I heard that was removed from IPO?

I heard (not read) that they were dropping the focused heel as a points determination? I hope not, we busted our butts to get that right lol. In any event I find it valuable for when I want focus as opposed to a regular loose lead heel. I was originally a non believer thinking the dog looked like he was in danger of hitting a pole..but I now realize the point is not to take walks like that, but to be able to get focus for periods of obedience. I'd hate to see that not emphasized anymore.

And from a human nature standpoint I see all of the things I deal with in IDPA (international defensive pistol association).So many parallels. It originated as a way for police to practice real life scenarios with the skills they are SUPPOSE to already have in order to be an LEO. A proving ground. Slowly it evolved into civilian past time, became flashy sport. Now people who do IDPA can't necessarily do real life stuff and are more focused on points for finesse "the board" making and changing rules, little nuances, people arguing over the merits of this that and the other thing. Now most real life LEOs and people who see action roll their eyes at the flashy technique and say how real life unsound it is and how people winning trophies in IDPA would last 10 seconds in a shoot house for real. So now IDPA is a thing that mostly civvies do for sport. The LEOs I shoot with that do show up take point deductions because they refuse to do something unsound in the name of flash or finesse.

The Paradox where real life practice becomes sport becomes something not real life practical anymore.

Just interesting is all.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 12:12 PM
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oooohhhh, good thread! I'll pop some popcorn and wait for the wisdom to overcome!
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 01:43 PM
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From my basic understanding, Schutzhund developed into IPO for international competition reasons (it literally translates into "Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung" AKA International Working Tests). Generally speaking, all working dogs will have an IPO title after the conformation to a single rule base. There's really no difference, other than the fact that most dogs prior to 2004 will be Schutzhund titled, whereas dogs shortly after will be IPO titled.

Any language is permitted for training, considering that the competition is open internationally. I think you could even use Clingon if you wanted.

Now, if you want to discuss how the sport has been modified time and time again to make it easier title, that will bring about popcorn worthy responses.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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So it is not like there is a Schutzhund title with certain acronyms as opposed to an IPO title that has certain acronyms? Same judges, etc. I honestly do get conflicting info on this.

I am sensitive to the dumbing down theory. Sure it keeps participation numbers (and financial flow) coming in..but at what true cost? The irony is it eventually devalues the title. This dog is expensive because both Sire and Dam have such and such...yes, but anyone can get such and such these days. Not saying IPO is all the way there, as I am new to it. Just...typically with these things.

At a recent discussion regarding the further modifications in IDPA pistol competition rules I said , let's just drop the D for Defensive and call it IPA. Because that is a beer. And beer is good. Some scenarios call for you to move while shooting. So gamers literally do this ridiculous baby steps thing so they are "moving" and shooting. So "the board" after hearing much of b-ing over this decided that "moving" was too vague of a thing for the Safety Officer (who also gives out penalties) to discern. So you are no longer allowed to give penalties for not moving when it is in the description. So now the stage description of the scenario reads something like this " Engage targets T1 thru T3 while on the move...OR NOT...then proceed to cover" With the OR NOT dripping with sarcasm lol And they now require little wooden sticks on the ground for the shooter to step on so that he can "feel" if he is in cover or not. Because that is realistic.

^It is stuff like THAT, jumping through hoops to make sure everyone has a chance and does not cry foul, even if they are not up to snuff, that makes a real world test evolve into everyone gets a trophy. Or at least a very good chance of getting a trophy.

Anyway, now that I have been hanging around I see parallels in IPO. On a business trip I visited one club and an IPO 1 dog was a rocket on the field, but shy off of it. Shy?

It's a known phenomenon. Almost every game or sport in history was initially a test/outlet of the already skilled. Until it evolves and becomes an elite sport.

Just looking for open discussion.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:13 PM
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They don't want a command like attack, they want it to be a release kind of thing. So you can say, go or ok. They're probably going to go anyway after they've done the exercise, so that's just an appearance concern, like a lot of things, so if you have a trained command like that, I don't think not using it in a trial will be very confusing for the dog. Its not focused heeling, its the rigid, robot like heeling they want to get away from. They want to emphasize more of a natural gait without the extreme upward head position.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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They don't want a command like attack, they want it to be a release kind of thing. So you can say, go or ok. They're probably going to go anyway after they've done the exercise, so that's just an appearance concern, like a lot of things, so if you have a trained command like that, I don't think not using it in a trial will be very confusing for the dog. Its not focused heeling, its the rigid, robot like heeling they want to get away from. They want to emphasize more of a natural gait without the extreme upward head position.
So you are allowed to say something to release them, on say...the long bite? I noticed in the blind it seems to be the helper who initiates the bite. Which would make sense in ways.

I can understand the rigid heel not being great. If you have time, any video example of what they are looking for would be great.
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:28 PM
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You are required to give a Go command on the escape. You do on the long bite. But as soon as you release their collar, they are going anyways.

No command on the attack out of the transport.

And a dog biting in the blind will lose you a ton of points if not a DQ. That's a bark and told. The helper is giving bites as a reward for barkinb.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 02:45 PM
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So it is not like there is a Schutzhund title with certain acronyms as opposed to an IPO title that has certain acronyms? Same judges, etc. I honestly do get conflicting info on this.

...

Anyway, now that I have been hanging around I see parallels in IPO. On a business trip I visited one club and an IPO 1 dog was a rocket on the field, but shy off of it. Shy?

It's a known phenomenon. Almost every game or sport in history was initially a test/outlet of the already skilled. Until it evolves and becomes an elite sport.

Just looking for open discussion.
All SchH titles are equivalent to the IPO title 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, and the BH is still the same title. Which acronyms are you referring to? Certain countries do have their own variation, and it is very different. ZVV, for example, is quite different from IPO. Having a male title to ZVV 3 is a huge deal, and an even bigger deal for a female. But the ZVV is not FCI recognized and therefore not accepted by the WUSV. So sometimes you'll see a dog with both IPO and ZVV titles, as they were likely titled over in Czech Republic before titling in IPO to meet SV breeding standards.

As for a dog being shy off the field but a total rocket on... what does shy mean, exactly? People might call Ryka shy, when in reality she's aloof. Doesn't care for strangers, but does love people, just not in the same way a Golden does.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Femfa View Post
All SchH titles are equivalent to the IPO title 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, and the BH is still the same title. Which acronyms are you referring to? Certain countries do have their own variation, and it is very different. ZVV, for example, is quite different from IPO. Having a male title to ZVV 3 is a huge deal, and an even bigger deal for a female. But the ZVV is not FCI recognized and therefore not accepted by the WUSV. So sometimes you'll see a dog with both IPO and ZVV titles, as they were likely titled over in Czech Republic before titling in IPO to meet SV breeding standards.

As for a dog being shy off the field but a total rocket on... what does shy mean, exactly? People might call Ryka shy, when in reality she's aloof. Doesn't care for strangers, but does love people, just not in the same way a Golden does.
Shy meaning skittish. Saw someone approach them and dog tucked behind owner and was doing that scan for a way out look.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-21-2018, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Oh and thanks for the explanation of the acronyms! I meant like I am use to seeing, historically SCHI II or III. Will you still see those or will it all be IPO now? Did the name Schutzhund change to IPO in other words?
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