Teaching Bark and Hold - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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Teaching Bark and Hold

Forgive me in advance if this is a stupid question. LOL!

If the dog needs to learn to come into the blind and bark and hold, why do I see some helpers who are teaching it, walk toward the dog and give him a bite? Why not just stay there and throw the pillow like some do?

I'd greatly appreciate understanding the reasoning to one approach over the other. TIA.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 08:23 PM
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The dog barking the helper in, teaches the dog that it can move the helper with his bark. It will also start to piece together the dog barking in rhythm. You will also see the dog barking coming 2 steps forward while the helper takes one step back. Then you will usually see the dog barking himself into a stationary helper. Then a helper standing to the back side of a blind, building, etc... then eventually helper standing inside of the blind with the dog coming in. It all has a purpose and a place in the training and building of the dog.
Throwing the pillow around the dog pushes the dog into prey drive. That also has a place in building the drive along with pressure and the release of said pressure.
I probably missed a whole bunch of stuff that may have answered your question better but that's the jest of it.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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@cdwoodcox, So both methods are used for different reasons? does the dog really GET that he is able to control the helper?

Last edited by gsdluvr; 02-03-2018 at 08:41 PM.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 08:41 PM
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throwing a pillow isn't something I ever see, nor do my dog get rewarded that way where the B&H exercise is concerned.
I want the grips to be rewarded, and the dog to engage the helper, push in, not pull. As far as the B&H exercise I agree with CD, the power of the bark is what moves the helper, and the dog learns that during the foundation training. Prey barks and defensive barking are different, and you want that balance when teaching.
We work the dog out in the open early, then bring them into the blind gradually.
Some dogs are naturally gifted with a powerful B&H, and not intimidated regardless of where they are working....others need more confidence building and the good helper knows how to time it, work it and reward.
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Last edited by onyx'girl; 02-03-2018 at 08:52 PM.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 08:45 PM
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Throwing the pillow around and working at a distance with the pillow and long line can be used for prey drive building or it can be used to engage the dog with little pressure from the decoy. Some dogs need both some dogs may need neither. Basically it all is a building process.
Think of teaching a child addition, subtract, multiplication, and division. Some kids may require flash cards to help them some may not. Once those have been learned they can move onto Algebra, geometry, etc...

Onyx is correct about not giving the dog bites from a thrown pillow. Once the dog is committed to prey "the thrown pillow" then the decoy will move in to give a bite. They then have the option of utilizing the long line to create distance and still be able to move the prey and keep pressure to hold a grip.
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Last edited by cdwoodcox; 02-03-2018 at 08:48 PM.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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I am learning! LOL! But i think I didn't explain my question correctly.

What I meant, was this: since in a trial, the dog Never gets a bite in the blind, why are we rewarding that way?
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 10:34 PM
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How you reward could depend on the dog. Mine likes to crowd the helper and when he does, locks up in prey. Throwing the sleeve out of the blind would put the reward line back so the dog is thinking get the sleeve. Where that backfires is....when the dog is thinking get the sleeve and anticipating the sleeve being thrown over the doing to bark and hold. Also, throwing the sleeve puts the dog back into prey. So if you have a dog tht needs to be worked in aggression, that is not the picture you want.

We also would pull him back from the blind so the helper could pop out of the blind and run like an escape bite. I really liked the results from that.

We use the board to maintain proper distance and he gets reward in the blind with a bite. That again, causes him to want to push forward.

I think the reward in teh blind needs to be a careful balance of reward lines.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 10:38 PM
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Teaching the dog to be called out of the blind, is a different exercise than the B&H.
That should be done out of the blind as well...handler can do it to start with a ball...put a ball or high value item and have the dog call off it to fuss position.
I never did it that way, but used a line and gave a correction with a fuss command. My dogs brain in protection needed the correction to give him that moment to comply. We started it out in the open, though, not in the blind. It depends on the dog and how clear they are, IMO. Some can call out easily, others not. I liked it when my dog would back up to me without turning.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdluvr View Post
I am learning! LOL! But i think I didn't explain my question correctly.

What I meant, was this: since in a trial, the dog Never gets a bite in the blind, why are we rewarding that way?
Reward the behavior you want. Same as using toys or food for obedience. They don't get them during trial but they aid in learning a behavior.
Dog comes in bark, bark, bark. Bite. Build it up until the dog holds his bark long enough for the handler to walk up and either get the dog or call it off. Always mixing up when the dog gets a bite so the dog is always anticipating and holding his intensity.
You'll see dogs getting bites during transport also. That is never gonna happen in trial. but it rewards a desired behavior.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 11:00 PM
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bites during transports...helper should come into the dog for that so forging isn't happening, but randomizing it is good too.
I like the contact heeling with a transport, keeps the dog with the handler. Karlo stalks, goes low, and is very long in body, forging is easy for him during that, so I want him basically touching my leg with his shoulder during a transport exercise.

Every exercise has different reward placements which all depends on the dog, and the actual exercise, and randomizing is essential within.
I never pattern trained because my dog would get bored with it, others pattern train constantly and have the reward coming at key points within the pattern.
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