WGSL dogs are IPO sport dogs, right? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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WGSL dogs are IPO sport dogs, right?

First, I apologize for some of the goofy questions I ask.

In several recent threads people have asked about prospective breeding's or puppies for IPO sports use. They supply links to the pedigrees which are WGSL and the overwhelming response is something like "those are show line dogs, look for working line for IPO sports".

When I look at the posted pedigrees I see WGSL dogs going back multiple generations with SCH2 and SCH3 titles.

Isn't WGSL dogs exactly what Shutzhund and IPO sports were created for? Proving the quality of the dog to ensure only the best examples are bred?

Last edited by Solamar; 11-16-2017 at 11:37 AM.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 11:40 AM
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Because passing is based on points, its a matter of not losing too many. You can hang on to those 70 out of 100 for different reasons. If you get a chance to see some larger trials in person, you'll see the differences in the actual dogs, not just show line vs working line, but all dogs.
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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Strom View Post
Because passing is based on points, its a matter of not losing too many. You can hang on to those 70 out of 100 for different reasons. If you get a chance to see some larger trials in person, you'll see the differences in the actual dogs, not just show line vs working line, but all dogs.

So if I'm a breeder I can use the sport to "prove" my dogs by gaining titles at a 70 point score?

But, if I enjoy the sport for itself and want to be competitive (working toward that 100 Pt run) there are better options than a typical WGSL?

Close?


(I just checked and there is a IPO trial coming up in December near me, looking forward to going!)

Last edited by Solamar; 11-16-2017 at 12:02 PM.
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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:02 PM
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It's about the dogs, not the lines. There are some exceptional working pedigrees in WGSL dogs, however the unfortunate truth is that very few WGSL breeders make developing a high quality working pedigree a priority. I know several WGSL breeders who breed for working capability, and I have a dog from one of these breeders and he is proving himself already at 9 months. He was bred for tracking, sire has his FH as does the Bad-Boll dog he was linebred on, and the first 3 generations contain either IPO3 or IPO2 dogs.

Sadly, there are many WGSL breeders out there who do not put pedigrees like this together and breed moreso for looks than for anything else. You have to do your research on pedigrees and find those breeders who are committed to breeding well-tempered working dogs that also rank in conformation. They're out there, and when you find them you can see it in their dogs.
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MacKenzie - Workling Line Female (In Loving Memory)
Wolfram - West German Showline Male [SG1, CGC, DDN, CN, EN, IN, VN]
Bash - Working Line Puppy
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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:05 PM
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People can point to this or that and claim it proves whatever they want. The dogs don't lie. A score is one piece. But you have to look at the total dog. In general, a SL is not going to have the aggression of a WL. But you're going to find SL's that track like nobody's business and are very biddable. Go see some trials and see why the different dogs lose the points they did, and a few things will make more sense.

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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kimbale View Post
There are some exceptional working pedigrees in WGSL dogs, however the unfortunate truth is that very few WGSL breeders make developing a high quality working pedigree a priority. I know several WGSL breeders who breed for working capability, and I have a dog from one of these breeders and he is proving himself already at 9 months. He was bred for tracking, sire has his FH as does the Bad-Boll dog he was linebred on, and the first 3 generations contain either IPO3 or IPO2 dogs.
If a breeder titles all their dogs to IPO2 and IPO3 do they necessarily meet the above description?

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Originally Posted by kimbale View Post
Sadly, there are many WGSL breeders out there who do not put pedigrees like this together and breed moreso for looks than for anything else.
And these breeders do not title at all but breed for specific aesthetic characteristics?

Or is it really not that black and white?
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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:35 PM
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WGSL are show line dogs, not working line dogs. They are required to have a working title in order to be bred with papers, but they are not selected for their working ability. They are selected for their physical appearance, such as coat color (almost all are black and rad, shoulder assembly angulation, correct proportion of leg and body depth to total height at withers, correct heads, balanced, extended trot, correct hocks, pasterns and croup, etc. The breed was originally a herding dog and a herding title can still qualify as a working title instead of an IPO title. The original thinking about structure was that is would allow the dog to work in the fields herding all day, moving as efficiently as possible, conserving the dog's energy. But over time, it all just morphed into another beauty contest that has very little to do with a dog's working ability. The true herding lines are all but gone and the old breeders of the true herding lines were much more concerned with mental traits such as genetic obedience than physical traits. If you are primarily selecting for physical appearance, you will ( and have) lose working ability. IPO is really not much of a breed suitability test anymore. Just look at all the high lines with IPO titles and then look to see how many of them are actually working as military and police dogs, which the founder shifted the main purpose of the breed to after times changed and herding increasingly faded away. There are some WGSL dogs that can work, but they are definitely in the minority. It is hard enough to find a healthy working line GSD that can excel at real work. True working dogs are generally not bred for looks. Consider the Malinois. Breeders outcross to different breeds to bring in vigor, their drive is not diluted to provide pets to a pet market. There is a lot of variability in structure based on different country's lines. There are still some very good GSDs out there with great working ability, but IMO, you will not find them among the WGSL's. And it is not really about points. Judges give points and their biases effect scoring. I heard a judge from Germany at a trial say, "The working dog people think a dog has to be ugly to work well." He was clearly a showline judge.

Last edited by Chip Blasiole; 11-16-2017 at 12:40 PM.
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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:41 PM
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It's not that black and white. Even if a dog carries an IPO3 title, you should still research the dog and understand where and how the title was obtained. I was just using the IPO3/IPO2 example for the front 3 generations as an example of what I was looking for. That said, there were also specific dogs that I wanted to see in these generations because I knew that they had produced quality working dogs in the past.

Who the grandparents were and who the parents were, were important and I wanted to see them work. If not in person (which was a bit impossible for one of the dogs considering he is a 2x VA champion) then I wanted to see videos and see their progeny work. I also wanted to know why certain dogs were picked for linebreeding in my dog and what characteristics were expected, and also did research on those dogs.

You have to research the dogs. The recommendation of going out to a club or a show is a good one. There are a lot of Regional Sieger shows going on right now. Go visit one and watch the working trials and talk to breeders about their dogs and what they look for a and why. There just aren't that many good WGSL breeders who breed for working capacity left in the industry. It takes a lot of researching and work on your part to find them.
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MacKenzie - Workling Line Female (In Loving Memory)
Wolfram - West German Showline Male [SG1, CGC, DDN, CN, EN, IN, VN]
Bash - Working Line Puppy

Last edited by kimbale; 11-16-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:41 PM
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ill chime in since I started the thread you are referring to,

from what ive seen is that WL dogs do in fact have a more noticeable drive and tenacity to them, BUT I have also watched SL dogs do the exact things I'm looking for. I'm likely still leaning heavily to the SL dogs I had posted in that original thread. the breeder seems very intent on how she pushes for her dogs to be avid performers in the working aspect as well as sound temperament in the home setting and that's what I want. if I get the joy of having a long coated dog with that then its a home run for me because personally that's my favorite.

that said if I do end up with one of these pups and I do ipo work only to find the dog is a limiting factor to my ability to progress in the sport then at that time ill consider a true WL dog. I assume I wouldn't have that issue though for a couple years anyway based on the time id be getting a pup next year, and frankly how new I personally am to this sport as well. I have gobs to learn still before I worry about making regional or national level success. By that time ill have more room in the house hold for another dog if I choose.

either way I go SL or WL ill be sure to document the journey here. So far this place has already been a huge help just by helping me avoid shady breeders
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-16-2017, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
WGSL are show line dogs, not working line dogs. They are required to have a working title in order to be bred with papers, but they are not selected for their working ability. They are selected for their physical appearance, such as coat color (almost all are black and rad, shoulder assembly angulation, correct proportion of leg and body depth to total height at withers, correct heads, balanced, extended trot, correct hocks, pasterns and croup, etc. The breed was originally a herding dog and a herding title can still qualify as a working title instead of an IPO title. The original thinking about structure was that is would allow the dog to work in the fields herding all day, moving as efficiently as possible, conserving the dog's energy. But over time, it all just morphed into another beauty contest that has very little to do with a dog's working ability. The true herding lines are all but gone and the old breeders of the true herding lines were much more concerned with mental traits such as genetic obedience than physical traits. If you are primarily selecting for physical appearance, you will ( and have) lose working ability. IPO is really not much of a breed suitability test anymore. Just look at all the high lines with IPO titles and then look to see how many of them are actually working as military and police dogs, which the founder shifted the main purpose of the breed to after times changed and herding increasingly faded away. There are some WGSL dogs that can work, but they are definitely in the minority. It is hard enough to find a healthy working line GSD that can excel at real work. True working dogs are generally not bred for looks. Consider the Malinois. Breeders outcross to different breeds to bring in vigor, their drive is not diluted to provide pets to a pet market. There is a lot of variability in structure based on different country's lines. There are still some very good GSDs out there with great working ability, but IMO, you will not find them among the WGSL's. And it is not really about points. Judges give points and their biases effect scoring. I heard a judge from Germany at a trial say, "The working dog people think a dog has to be ugly to work well." He was clearly a showline judge.

wow - that says it ALL.

splamar have a look at the ice-berg breeders thread https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...-breeders.html
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