Bark and hold. - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-05-2017, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
Knighted Member
 
cdwoodcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,363
Bark and hold.

I took Athena out tonight to work on the bark and hold. Besides the obvious. My sloppy presentation or cramming the wedge into her mouth. What else should I be doing differently.
https://youtu.be/JLA_Jzk3Jsw
cdwoodcox is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 08:22 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 706
Are you doing this just for the heck of it, or are you planning on trying to title your dog?
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 08:23 AM
Moderator
 
car2ner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,252
once she gets the idea, hold the bite pillow down while she is barking and raising the pillow up (like you would if you were raising an arm to block you face) will be her cue to jump up and grab the pillow. So Down is Bark, Up is Bite and Hold.

And I am glad you got her to come up from sniffing. Sometimes it is tough to be more interesting than dirt.

about.me/car2ner
Patton CGC BH
Chief fetch fanatic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

car2ner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
Knighted Member
 
cdwoodcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Blasiole View Post
Are you doing this just for the heck of it, or are you planning on trying to title your dog?
Plan on Titling. Well get our BH this September at our clubs trial. Then an IPO 1 next spring. We have started working on bark and hold some with decoy. I just figured I could help her along at home some evenings.
cdwoodcox is offline  
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
Knighted Member
 
cdwoodcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by car2ner View Post
once she gets the idea, hold the bite pillow down while she is barking and raising the pillow up (like you would if you were raising an arm to block you face) will be her cue to jump up and grab the pillow. So Down is Bark, Up is Bite and Hold.

And I am glad you got her to come up from sniffing. Sometimes it is tough to be more interesting than dirt.
She is normally a lot more fired up to bite. This was our last come in. We had been working for a while before this. I should have quit before this one. But I wanted to get one video so I could get some feedback and visually see myself and her.
And yeah I'll keep the pillow down lower and raise it to bite position and let her come up for it. I don't plan on doing a lot of this stuff myself. We have a great helper at club. I just figure if I can help her get the idea behind some of this mundane stuff at home it may be more productive at club. Only having access to helper once a week can make things seem to go super slow.
car2ner likes this.
cdwoodcox is offline  
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 09:37 AM
Crowned Member
 
onyx'girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SW, MI
Posts: 27,280
Bark/Hold really shouldn't be considered mundane or routine. You want the dog to show power and sustain the power in the(barking) guarding so I would not really work on this (on you). It is best done on a helper that the dog can really try to intimidate.
Just my opinion.
Many dogs do just fine working on a helper once per week, as long as the session is a good one(we do two sessions of protection if the dog needs it)
GypsyGhost likes this.

Jane~
Kept by
Gambit zu Treuen Handen

Guinness auf der Marquis...Karlo son!

Always in my heart
Karlo aka Gideon vom Wildhaus
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
3.02.09~12.03.18
Kacie
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
7.21.05-5.01.15
Onyx
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
11.08.06-9.28.18
onyx'girl is offline  
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 09:43 AM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,303
I agree with Onyx, completely CD. Barking on command for a toy with her not back tied is one thing, but the conflict you can create with what you're doing there may come back to haunt you, especially the better she is in protection. Keep the conflict on the helper and you make sure she know's you're on her side.
GypsyGhost likes this.

Doc

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 09:57 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 706
For me, the B&H and teaching the dog the correct motivation for performing the exercise is complex. You have to know your dog's drive package. You have to train your dog that he is actually holding and controlling the helper with his bark in the same way he does with his bite, which is not natural for a dog. The bite is not supposed to be a prey reinforcement. You want a balance of prey, fight/active aggression and defense, which requires the right dog and the correct foundation training. Having said that, it becomes very difficult to get a correctly motivated dog that is actually holding, controlling and fighting the helper with his bark because you need a dog with the right balance of drives and the exercise is done so much in training, it becomes difficult for the dog to see it other than a prey reinforcement exercise.
IMO, teaching your own dog to do a B&H at any time interferes with the goals I'm stating. Topographically, the behavior kind of looks similar to a strong dog that is actually holding and fighting the helper with his bark, but in the dog's head things can be night and day. For example, most people know what a counter is when it comes to a bite. The dog bites the sleeve and then counters forward, gripping deeper and stronger on the sleeve. But a dog can also counter with his bark in the B&H, and if you or the helper don't know that, the training is incorrect and you end up just teaching the dog a circus trick of barking to get to bite the sleeve. A counter in the bark results when the dog is holding/barking at the helper and the helper is able to tap into some defensive aggression through his presence (which only really good helpers have) and the dog counters with his bark as evidenced by the bark becoming more serious for a bark or two or a change in cadence, etc. When that happens, a good helper will reward the change in the bark with a bite. So the reward is not just for prey barking but for a display of fight and defensive aggression. The other issue is that most dogs quickly learn that they are not going to get hurt doing the B&H, so it quickly becomes very much a prey game.
In a nutshell, hope you have a dog with some aggression other than predatory/prey, such as social, defensive/reactive, active aggression, that you have a really good helper who can elicit those types of aggression, and don't train you own dog to bark for a prey object because that defeats the true purpose of the exercise. It is a luxury that most people don't have to have a really correct and balanced dog and an exceptional helper to correctly motivate the dog in this exercise.
GypsyGhost likes this.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
Knighted Member
 
cdwoodcox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,363
See everything has got to be complicated. It can't be as simple as me going out, back tying my dog, and giving her a bite when she barks and has a little rhythm. LOL.
@ chip. Prey is her dominant drive. Or the drive that she goes to when she sees wedge, pillow, tug, etc.... But she does seem to have a fair amount of aggression available, fight drive is there, and defense is there when or if needed. We are fortunate to have a really good helper and club director. Both have said that Athena is progressing just fine. I am just impatient, we have had to spend time working on getting her to calm down and not try and scream the helper in. But to bark the helper in. Patience isn't my strongest attribute.
So maybe I'll listen to everyone for once and let her come along slowly but correctly. I need to spend my time working on tracking and obedience anyway.
cdwoodcox is offline  
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 07-06-2017, 10:37 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 706
Some say 80% of training is what you don't do with your dog. What you are doing is very common. Your dog's behavior has become very reinforcing to your behavior, but there are pitfalls involved. Because of her intense prey drive, IMO, it is even more important to for you to not do any barking for a bite. Just try to keep in mind it is a guarding exercise.
Chip Blasiole is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome