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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Most likely a correction with an e-collar for not outing and an instant reward once she has, obviously depending on age. At some point, you have to tell them "No, you HAVE to do this". And adding a clicker to mark the out with an instant reward for doing so might help.

Just make sure the out is clean. No chewing on the way!
That is the problem..... Chewing/ locking! LOL!
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 03:20 PM
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Right and I usually do this a lot sometimes before play. Will it just be a matter of time and repetitions before it's reliable, Or will I need a correction the way Jax describes? Oh yes, and she is trained with markers.
Depends on the dog, the training, the frame of mind. I have one dog who was, is, and always will be sloooow to out the ball on a string type toy (tugs, fine...frisbees and other toys, not a problem). Now in protection? No issues with outing, never needed multiple commands or tons of pressure, but that's a totally different frame of mind than using a ball as a reward for obedience. Same story with retrieves, ZERO issues outing dumbbells (always held firm and calm, always outed on command and clean). But outing that dang ball while doing obedience training....never really quick. At some point I just stopped picking that battle. It wasn't a behavior that had any affect in trial because the outs we do in trial (retrieves and protection) were clean. Now that said dog is retired from Schutzhund, I tend to use different toys when we are just playing or exercises. He will probably go to his grave giving two more good chomps on a gappay ball after the "aus" command, lol. Thankfully, said dog was not really possessive, so when I wanted the ball back I simply reached in behind his teeth and took it out of his mouth. If he'd been more possessive of it, then I would have been on his butt more about not outing it immediately on command. The times we had improvement were when I did a lot of quick two ball and always released him to re-grab one of the balls as a reward for outing fast, but in the grand scheme of things I wanted to focus more on training the actual skills we had to perform and not a lickety split out of the ball. Outing other toys were not a problem so I could also change it up and use a tug. These days when we play obedience just to brush it up I hold a frisbee in my left hand kind of hanging at the dog's left flank (also helps keep his butt straight while heeling) and then roll that or let him grab it and tug as a reward.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Depends on the dog, the training, the frame of mind. I have one dog who was, is, and always will be sloooow to out the ball on a string type toy (tugs, fine...frisbees and other toys, not a problem). Now in protection? No issues with outing, never needed multiple commands or tons of pressure, but that's a totally different frame of mind than using a ball as a reward for obedience. Same story with retrieves, ZERO issues outing dumbbells (always held firm and calm, always outed on command and clean). But outing that dang ball while doing obedience training....never really quick. At some point I just stopped picking that battle. It wasn't a behavior that had any affect in trial because the outs we do in trial (retrieves and protection) were clean. Now that said dog is retired from Schutzhund, I tend to use different toys when we are just playing or exercises. He will probably go to his grave giving two more good chomps on a gappay ball after the "aus" command, lol. Thankfully, said dog was not really possessive, so when I wanted the ball back I simply reached in behind his teeth and took it out of his mouth. If he'd been more possessive of it, then I would have been on his butt more about not outing it immediately on command. The times we had improvement were when I did a lot of quick two ball and always released him to re-grab one of the balls as a reward for outing fast, but in the grand scheme of things I wanted to focus more on training the actual skills we had to perform and not a lickety split out of the ball. Outing other toys were not a problem so I could also change it up and use a tug. These days when we play obedience just to brush it up I hold a frisbee in my left hand kind of hanging at the dog's left flank (also helps keep his butt straight while heeling) and then roll that or let him grab it and tug as a reward.
I WISH my dog was tug motivated, but ball is all I've got that really puts her in drive for energetic OB. Food used to work better, and still is good for working on precision. It holds her attention but doesn't build sparkle as well.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 04:10 PM
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some dogs really want to tug because they love the fight. If there is some tug, and then the tug goes dead with the out command, there is no 'game'. Karlo loves the fight, is all about winning. I let him win sometimes, other times I will put him in a platz and out him. If you want to use a ball or tug for quick positions and the dog clearly is more into the tug game than chewing a ball, there will be conflict.

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking heeling quick tug/reward for focus, out, heeling pull out ball, tug, out etc. Trying to build focus for the next appearance of the ball. When all done with pattern, maybe a good long throw/retrieve. Hopefully, I can build drive etc. and not create conflict?
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 07:57 PM
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many utilize a throw reward, but then it is time consuming and is not interaction really with the handler. I've always tried to keep the reward time shortened when doing positions. Out, reward for the out with another bite is a good goal. All dogs are different, but, I'd only throw at the end of the session. It takes away from the 'lesson' when done in the quick position type reward session. Food may be the best way for rewarding, high value chicken or whatever when a dog is not willing to out asap on a ball or tug.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 09:38 PM Thread Starter
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Right, throwing would be at the end of session.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-18-2016, 10:55 PM
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I WISH my dog was tug motivated, but ball is all I've got that really puts her in drive for energetic OB. Food used to work better, and still is good for working on precision. It holds her attention but doesn't build sparkle as well.
It may be something to build on. As a youngster, my dog was not super motivated for anything except food. His drive for the ball (and subsequent reluctance to out it) is definitely a monster I created! When I first got a ball-on-a-string, I would throw it, he would chase it, then just trot away from me and lie down very nonchalant. It took a LOT of two-ball to get him interested in coming BACK to me to engage, not just carry the ball around while doing other stuff. Finally he started coming back but liked to play keep-away if I reached for the string to tug, so I trained him to jump up on my chest and shove the toy *into* me, which works great for playing together as long as I am paying attention I also did some back-tying and teasing him with the ball. The more I made it THE fun thing, the more it became HIS thing. I had to do the same for other toys, take a few steps back and show him that those are fun too, they can be fetched or tugged or whatever. If I take a few minutes of playing before going into some ob, he'd work for an old towel, but early on I had to really build his understanding that everything is more fun with me than just grabbing the object and running off. He was not real into tug either as a pup, but now will tug anything, with anyone.

But, I do agree that using a ball was always my preference for ob training. I liked having something I could easily hold in my left hand and something that I could drop, throw, tug with, etc.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-19-2016, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
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I had to Lol thinking about having him jump on you for the ball! I can see myself on the ground after that!!

We have progressed from 2 ball to a decent retrieve. So she brings it to me, I tell her ous(sp?) let the string go limp and when she drops it/let's go, I give a "good" for a bridge marker and pick up slowly, then give her the ball and a "yes" marker. She is getting it. It's just going to take repetitions.

She is somewhat interested in the tug, but i have to start with it because once the ball comes out, she'd rather tug that!!

I will keep trying, it might kick in?
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