The differences between PPD and Sport dogs - As I understand it. - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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The differences between PPD and Sport dogs - As I understand it.

Hey all, I'm new to this whole protection dog world (sports and PPD). I'm just asking for some clarification on what I'm perceiving as the differences between the two. Some claim PPD and sport dogs are mutually exclusive (you can't have both in the same dog), and I want to make sure I'm understanding them correctly.

PPD - A dog that uses its own judgement to perceive threats and act accordingly. These dogs seem to be criticized for being on the verge of "out of control".

Sport Dog - A dog that is under strict control, doesn't make many decisions unless its commanded. These dogs seem to be criticized for being equipment focused, and won't consistently bite bad guys who aren't in a bite suit, or aren't wearing a sleeve.

Someone of a different forum indicated that a PPD typically isn't suitable to have off leash, in public playing etc. Others disagreed.

Just wondering if my interpretation is correct? Please feel free to correct or add to my understanding as you see fit. As always, a book could be written about the topic, and there's exceptions to every rule. But try to keep things "generally speaking" if possible.

I'm a long time competitive retriever trainer, and I'm diving into protection dogs head first. This is a similar debate that takes place between Field Trial Retriever trainers and Gun Dog trainers. Thanks for the feedback.
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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 12:37 PM
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There are good dogs and then there are dogs with weaknesses which depending on what they are can affect their ability to be a PPD dog or affect their ability to be handled well in sport. They are not mutually exclusive.
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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 01:33 PM
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Interesting views on PPD's and sport dogs. What forum, if I may ask did those descriptions come from, you can PM me that if you like.

A dog that isn't suitable off leash, or on the verge of being out of control is not going to be a very good PPD. Also, a dog that isn't suitable to be out in public and has such weak nerves, poor obedience and control or that much aggression will not be a very good PPD, IMO. If the dog can not be with it's owner in public, it's use as a PPD is limited. You wind up with a dog that is good guarding a junk yard, that is about it.

There are many people that do not understand dogs and think because their dog barks aggressively at every one it sees, it is A PPD. Often, the exact opposite is true. There are certainly vendors, breeders and brokers that will sell a novice these "sharp" dogs touting "what a real dog it is" or it is the old style dog….. This "marketing" will fool a lot of people, that buy into this.

No dog should be allowed to make it's own decisions on whom to bite, unless left alone in the house and an intruder comes in. True PPD's need as much control as any sport or even my Police K-9. There is a tremendous amount of liability in the PPD that was described to you.

You have brought up the age old debate of sport dogs vs PPD. As Bailif correctly stated there are good sport dogs that would easily protect their handler. THey are some that won't. Just like there are plenty of so called "PPD's" that will not defend their handler when things get serious.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
Interesting views on PPD's and sport dogs. What forum, if I may ask did those descriptions come from, you can PM me that if you like.

A dog that isn't suitable off leash, or on the verge of being out of control is not going to be a very good PPD. Also, a dog that isn't suitable to be out in public and has such weak nerves, poor obedience and control or that much aggression will not be a very good PPD, IMO. If the dog can not be with it's owner in public, it's use as a PPD is limited. You wind up with a dog that is good guarding a junk yard, that is about it.

There are many people that do not understand dogs and think because their dog barks aggressively at every one it sees, it is A PPD. Often, the exact opposite is true. There are certainly vendors, breeders and brokers that will sell a novice these "sharp" dogs touting "what a real dog it is" or it is the old style dog….. This "marketing" will fool a lot of people, that buy into this.

No dog should be allowed to make it's own decisions on whom to bite, unless left alone in the house and an intruder comes in. True PPD's need as much control as any sport or even my Police K-9. There is a tremendous amount of liability in the PPD that was described to you.

You have brought up the age old debate of sport dogs vs PPD. As Bailif correctly stated there are good sport dogs that would easily protect their handler. THey are some that won't. Just like there are plenty of so called "PPD's" that will not defend their handler when things get serious.

I agree with this. A good dog can do either. Training is very different though. IMO a sport dog is actually less controlled. Like Jim said, a PPD is no good if you can't take it everywhere with you. My wife and I always say, "We like to live life with our dogs. If we can't take them everywhere with us then what good are they?" We train with real world applications in mind however still compete in sports. We do ask our dogs to work independent of us as well as with us. We also like pretty obedience and focus. Our dogs are asked to work in unknown environments. Not the same set up every time. I do believe there is a difference in the "type" of dog people want for each individual application(or different sport venue for that matter) as well as how they train it to bring out the traits they want.

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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-14-2016, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Honestly, I cannot remember the specific place I read that. I've been on so many of these forums, I can't remember. I specifically do remember the chap saying "I would never have my PPD off leash". Regardless, it didn't sway my goal to have a 100% reliable off leash dog. I have 2 high drive labs that are under complete control off leash. I realize that a Malinois is a different animal, but I'm confident I can get him there.

My main goal is a confident dog with solid obedience. Biting is secondary.
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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 11:29 AM
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Though I cannot say I'm the authority on protection dogs, your statement that some people feel sport dogs cannot be protection dogs because they only go for equipment and specific circumstances made me want to post about the sport of PSA. I love it, and it's been growing exponentially for a lot of reasons, but some of those reasons include what you mentioned above. There aren't always patterns to the training and trials, and the dogs bite hidden sleeves and muzzled, take down unsuited/unsleeved "perpetrators, in more "real to life" scenarios. You can see some of this in this wonderful trailer. I get the shivers every time I watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_gWSCAJgw

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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 04:41 PM
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I specifically do remember the chap saying "I would never have my PPD off leash".
I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel the same way about their own dogs. I'm equally sure there are also plenty of people who have no problem letting their PPD dogs off leash, around other people, etc.

It's really a case-by-case basis that depends on the training and behaviour of the dog and the handler's comfort level of letting that dog be off-leash.

Geographical location (read: laws) will also play a huge role, but since you're based in Nicaragua, I'll venture a guess and say that you likely don't have to worry about that as much as someone in the US/Canada.

Here in Canada, if someone breaks into your house and gets bit by your dog, they'll sue you and you'll be the one in trouble, with a good chance of the dog being put down. Doesn't make much sense, but that's how it is.

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You can see some of this in this wonderful trailer. I get the shivers every time I watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_gWSCAJgw
I didn't see anything in that video that was overly impressive. Between the music, the dramatic fading of text, and the editing, the whole thing stank like a trailer for another one of Michael Bay's Transformer movies.

The dogs had great obedience and bit on command, which is nice, but they only showed a few seconds of every "fight" and no instances of the dog releasing (out'in) and continuing obedience after being called off and still being pumped up and in drive. You don't want a dog that you can't control after giving the bite command.

I recently came across this old thread: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...y-monkeys.html . Flip through the pages and you'll see YouTube videos (like in post #56) of dogs that can actually mess someone up. (Read the descriptions - some of those dogs have zero protection training at the time of the video being taken.) That level of commitment to the fight is what I'd want to see in a PPD.
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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 06:32 PM
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I didn't see anything in that video that was overly impressive. Between the music, the dramatic fading of text, and the editing, the whole thing stank like a trailer for another one of Michael Bay's Transformer movies.

The dogs had great obedience and bit on command, which is nice, but they only showed a few seconds of every "fight" and no instances of the dog releasing (out'in) and continuing obedience after being called off and still being pumped up and in drive. You don't want a dog that you can't control after giving the bite command.
Yes it was just a two minute trailer for the nationals so it's not going to be detailed. There are a lot of detailed videos showing what you described.

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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 06:50 PM
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Ah, great. Would be nice to see an instance or two of the end-to-end behaviour in those trailers. Although I guess the general public would probably be only interested in the initial bite.
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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Suka View Post
Though I cannot say I'm the authority on protection dogs, your statement that some people feel sport dogs cannot be protection dogs because they only go for equipment and specific circumstances made me want to post about the sport of PSA. I love it, and it's been growing exponentially for a lot of reasons, but some of those reasons include what you mentioned above. There aren't always patterns to the training and trials, and the dogs bite hidden sleeves and muzzled, take down unsuited/unsleeved "perpetrators, in more "real to life" scenarios. You can see some of this in this wonderful trailer. I get the shivers every time I watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_gWSCAJgw

You forgot that it is addicting! :Wild:

Enzo v TeMar
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