Creating drive through deprivation - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
mycobraracr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,847
Creating drive through deprivation

In another thread it was brought up that we can/can't create drive by depriving our dogs. Deprive them from what? Anything the dog really wants. Some people don't let there dogs have toys except the ones they use for training. Some keep there dogs kenneled/crated except for when they are training. Some will make the dog skip a meal or two to increase the desire for food and so on. So what are your thoughts?
mycobraracr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 12:15 PM
Crowned Member
 
Gwenhwyfair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,666
Good question. Both trainers I have worked with believe withholding food/toys improves training.

I do it on a limited basis, no breakfast on training day and such, not too many different toys around.

It makes sense, intuitively, but that doesn't mean it's always the best way....(??)
Gwenhwyfair is offline  
post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 02:58 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19,496
I don't do this but it kind of happens naturally being that my Schutzhund club is 2.5 hours away and my dogs are kept crated in my vehicle when it's not their turn. So there are always periods of them being separated from me and only having access to water before they are worked and then again afterward. At home, I do not purposely do this. We have dog toys littering the house and yard. I use food to train some things but it is not in place of meals. I just feel like there are some things my dogs have to earn but there are some things they just get and don't have to work for. Meals and water are things dogs just get. Some of my training toys are not left out but it's more because they will get destroyed quickly, not because I need to deprive the dog of them in order for it to have value. My current SchH/IPO dog is not crated at home unless we have company. He is always crated in the vehicle for safety and since we train in several venues, he's actually crated almost every day plus we travel every weekend for SchH training and/or tournaments and other events.

I like having dogs around and that's why I own them. Now if I had a kennel I'd probably use it at times, but not for "creating" drive, more because sometimes I need to do things without dogs in the way, or dogs are stinky and I just want them out for a while. I don't know if you can create drive through deprivation or not, it's just not a strategy I've tried.

Last edited by Liesje; 05-25-2013 at 03:01 PM.
Liesje is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 03:15 PM
Elite Member
 
Merciel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,574
I wouldn't do this. Deprivation training's not my style at all. I think there are better and kinder ways of motivating a dog.

I went to my first Schutzhund trial today and it was pretty eye-opening. I only saw five dogs doing their level 2 obedience routines, no protection or tracking work (would have liked to stay longer, but I had to get back to do something else this afternoon). All the dogs I saw scored between 70 and 74, so I don't know how representative that is, but as a group they didn't appear to be particularly into their work.

So yeah I think I'll stick with my current motivational methods for the time being.

ARCHMX TDCH Pongu the Insane, CD-C, RE, RL1X6, RL2X5, RL3X2 (GSD mix, b. Apr 2010)
Crookytail the Tigerwuff, RL1, ITD (Akita mix, b. Jan 2011)
Merciel is offline  
post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 03:17 PM
Administrator & LOTR Addict
 
lhczth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Posts: 18,721
I have been around many people in several venues that believe you can build drive/desire to work though deprivation. The dog is only out, given attention to, fed, etc when they work. They don't want to work food, attention, toys are withheld. It is a form of negative punishment and often used by those who do not believe in positive punishment. It is also used by those who treat dogs like training equipment. No different than a baseball glove.

I hated this mindset when I first heard of it 30 years ago and my opinion has not changed.

Lisa Clark

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB (the ugly little sable) IPO2 KKL B/HOT, Jarka (up and coming) BHOT, and gone but not forgotten,
Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT



lhczth is offline  
post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 03:30 PM
Elite Member
 
Merciel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
They don't want to work food, attention, toys are withheld. It is a form of negative punishment and often used by those who do not believe in positive punishment.
Now that I actually do use, although not in the sense of kenneling the dog except when it's being worked or depriving of it water, meals, etc.

The version I use is more like Denise Fenzi's "Fred": Meet Fred | Denise Fenzi

...except since I actually have two dogs, I'll switch off and work Crookytail for a few minutes with LOTS! OF! ENTHUSIASM! if Pongu is flagging. Meanwhile Pongu just gets ignored.

It never lasts for more than about five or six minutes because Crooky is, alas, dumb as a box of rocks and I can only take so much pretending to be excited by his enthusiastic but inept efforts. But it sure gets Pongu back in the game. And meanwhile Crooky gets some attention and cookies and maybe a couple of inches closer to whatever project he's currently been assigned, so it's win-win for Dog Mob.

ARCHMX TDCH Pongu the Insane, CD-C, RE, RL1X6, RL2X5, RL3X2 (GSD mix, b. Apr 2010)
Crookytail the Tigerwuff, RL1, ITD (Akita mix, b. Jan 2011)
Merciel is offline  
post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 03:35 PM
Master Member
 
KristiM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 753
I have also seen this used a lot by people who don't believe in, or want to use corrections for crappy performance. Personally I would much rather use fair corrections over deprivation. It's not just bite sport people who do this, a lot of performance sport people seem to use it because they believe that correcting dogs is evil! (But not letting them enjoy life is fine lol)

Odin ~ GSD
Zuri ~ German Coolie

Havoc ~ (aka "Super") GSD - Rest easy buddy.
Keeper ~ (rest in peace little stinker) (Aussie)
KristiM is offline  
post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Elite Member
 
Kaiser2012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Outer Banks, NC
Posts: 1,236
My trainer has sent me in this direction in that I'm to remove all toys and basically crate kaiser before nd after training. Its hard for me because he's a pet first and my natural inclination is to love on him and spend all my time with him. I understand the difference between a true pet and. True working dog, and I realize that not every dog within those categories requires the same type of training. I will say however that Kaiser is more engaged now, than he was before. Will he be a top sport dog in any venue? No. But that's ok. I DO want a flawless bh routine and I DO want kick a** focus during whatever spoet we do pursue though. If this gets me there, when nothing else did, then ill give it a go.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Kaiser ~ Jan 25, 2012 (GSD)
Dakota ~ Oct 2005 (GSD/Collie)
Mya ~ Dec 2013 (GSD)
JOIN MYA AS A SDiT...We would love your support!...at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kaiser2012 is offline  
post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 04:15 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jeff. County, NY
Posts: 9,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiM View Post
I have also seen this used a lot by people who don't believe in, or want to use corrections for crappy performance. Personally I would much rather use fair corrections over deprivation. It's not just bite sport people who do this, a lot of performance sport people seem to use it because they believe that correcting dogs is evil! (But not letting them enjoy life is fine lol)
Yeah. It is hypocritical and a contradiction in itself.

I do not like doing it either...however, skipping a meal to use it during training is something I do.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Mrs.K is offline  
post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 04:45 PM
Elite Member
 
DaniFani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,532
I cut tennis balls out for awhile when we first started training. We were working on grip and not chewing. The tennis ball had started a habit of chewing and wanting to hold everything in the front of his mouth (where the tennis ball comfortably goes). His grip is great now, nice and deep, and no chewing on the puppy sleeve. I could probably get the tennis balls back out, just haven't thought to.

I haven't done it for food. I haven't had any need to, but if the dog's food drive wasn't there I would consider skipping the morning meal the day of, or the night before and then just feed it on the track or during obedience.

Dogs in general are driven by the survival instincts, food, play/prey, sex, etc...it makes sense that the surefire way to up the drive for any of these things is to deprive them of it. No food=increased their want/drive for food (or to perform for it, ie hunting), locked in a crate, isolated=increased desire(drive) for play/pack interaction, don't let them breed a female in heat==well, you can imagine that picture lol. That's what makes all these things happen in nature.

Burt Bellon talks about this. He uses an eagle or hawk as an example. Bird wakes up, get hunger pains, the hunger pains up it's hunting drive, bird starts looking around and hunts---gets the reward of eating. If they didn't have the hunger pains, wouldn't have the drive to hunt, wouldn't eat, and would die.

It's all up to the handler, what they think their dog needs, and what type of dog it is (what it brings to the table genetically) and what it's history is.

Last edited by DaniFani; 05-25-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Grammar ;-)
DaniFani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome