Do you think the way judging is.... - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-11-2013, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Do you think the way judging is....

Do you think the way judging is now days is causing breeders to breed the "extreme drive" dogs? It seems that at most trials(at least ones I have been to), the judges want to see the Mal type drives in the GSD's. It would then be only natural then for someone wanting to go far in the sport to get an extreme drive dog. Breeders wanting to supply the "sport" crowd then produce these dogs. It seems like a downward spiral. It almost seems pointless to breed to standard when judges don't want to see that. They want to see a mal in a gsd body.
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post #2 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 07:31 AM
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Judges in show and sport have a big impact on the direction of the breed in terms of breeding!
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post #3 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 08:32 AM
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That goes in all venues! IPO/schutzhund, AKC Show ring, German show ring....people breed to what wins. Same in the horse world. Problem is that in judging, there is human error and human failing - what they miss, who they know....sometimes to the exclusion of the performances they see.

At a trial one time - there was a dog who had many many flaws in it's routine - it was given a generous 92. The next dog up had a nearly flawless routine....the only criticism in the critique was for slight forging in the back transport. Score? 92. Same as the very faulty dog. Next dog - came off the sleeve at a stick hit. Score? 98.....It all came down to the field, hosts and handlers. In reality the first should have been about an 83-84, the second 98, and the third, being generous, an 85 S.

Quite a few litters were bred from the first and third males. Because of who owned them and their apparent quality as shown in their scorebook. Competition for those breedings in a club is often very political, and to stay on the right side of the helper/trainer/owner/host, you use their males to breed. And as a good club member, you buy your puppies there. This is not always conducive to good breeding. So even indirectly, the judges have impact on breeding.

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post #4 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 09:07 AM
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My dog isn't a sport dog, and I know we'll be judged for that vs what he actually IS!

I have to live with him, and don't want a kennel dog...so I'll take the points(lack of) because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me the scores/but how much fun we have during training and working together.

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post #5 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstraum View Post
That goes in all venues! IPO/schutzhund, AKC Show ring, German show ring....
Lee


I Could not agree more. I have discovered it's not the dog being judged. I have also learned that scores don't really reflect how good or bad a dog is. I was at a trial where the judge commented on how nervy the dog was but that dog still scored the highest in the trial for it's class that day. It drove me nuts! Now when I see scores like 96-97-98 I just laugh. It really doesn't mean anything. It's my biggest issue with sport right now. Oh and I definitely agree it's all about who you know. I have some stories about that too!
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post #6 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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If the judges want to see these prey monsters, but you(general you) produce balanced GSD's, where are these dogs supposed to go? Pet homes? That seems like a waste. If I'm trying to produce the ultimate utilitarian, then I would want to see my dogs proven in multiple venues and real life work. But if the people actually capable of doing something with one of my dogs wants a dog specialized for there field then I would be screwed.
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post #7 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-12-2013, 10:29 AM
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I've had a few experiences where I hear a judge say one thing and then they judge completely differently, so yes it is confusing especially for someone relatively new to the sport. I don't think a dog that is not a prey-monster or not an "extreme" dog is going to not get the points he deserves, but I do think some dogs can put on such a show that they are judged based on that performance and not what might really be there. Also I don't think this is purely based on judging but on what people like to breed and train. Whether the judging informs this trend sounds like what you are asking....chicken or egg? I don't know, I think a little of both. It seems that before I was born, people had different priorities when they chose dogs to train for SchH and now I see many of my friends very intentionally choosing dogs that fit a different, more extreme style of training. Since I do so many dog sports at once, I am always looking more for the total package since there are many, many aspects to what I do that are never tested in any way during SchH (dog aggression, for example) and I don't really have time to worry about getting a super flashy points dog for SchH because most of the dogs I personally know who would fit that description have some major shortcomings as far as the other sports I participate in. If that's what other people want to train and attempt to live with....whatever! I don't think my dog has been unfairly judged or scored even though he's quite laid back, more medium or medium-high drive, and high threshold. I will leave the "v" scores to people obsessed with getting them. I was telling someone in my club last weekend I am thrilled to have a high "G" or "SG" dog, that means he's very good!!
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post #8 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 06:22 AM
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Yes, judges influence what types of dogs are the "best". A super fast dog that comes very fast into the decoy is going to get high points for this, even if the dog is quite boring to see besides that.

Then maybe we shouldn´t judge a dog too much on what it does on a given day in a trial, seen dogs in bigger championships either hesitating a bit in the reattack or even run away, same dogs that previously or after this had competed with high scores in WUSV or national championships. Is the dog not strong or was it just some lack in training, a bad day or similar that made for these not so good performannce that day? I don´t know but I suppose dogs aren´t machines either.
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post #9 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 07:01 AM
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A breeder that I really respect told me that it is a bad idea to make a breeding decision off a trial performance. He said you need to see the dog in training. Some dogs have very good trainers and live a very easy life and score well in trials. Other dogs go through very harsh training and are still standing to go to trial. Those are the dogs that he wants to breed too.
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post #10 of 63 (permalink) Old 05-13-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
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A breeder that I really respect told me that it is a bad idea to make a breeding decision off a trial performance. He said you need to see the dog in training. Some dogs have very good trainers and live a very easy life and score well in trials. Other dogs go through very harsh training and are still standing to go to trial. Those are the dogs that he wants to breed too.
I agree with the breeder...trial is just a picture of the dog.
Yet, how many allow people to watch the training? I think many don't want an audience viewing their sessions.

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