USA/SV dual reg - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Question USA/SV dual reg

I recently took ownership of a dog that has not been entered in any shows or trials since she was under a year old so now that she is under my name, I'm getting her scorebook and registration done for upcoming trials/shows.

If I have plans to breed the dog in Germany, is it better to register the dog with a USA/SV dual registration or would a simple USA registration do? I can always get the USA changed to dual later on if necessary.

Would the titles obtained under a USA registration be valid if the dog is later on registered as USA/SV?
USA reg costs 35$ and dual runs 80$.

If I end up doing dual, how should I provide proof of the ancestor's show ratings and work titles? My breeder will have copies for the sire and dam. Would that be sufficient for grandparents as well or do they need individual proof as well? The ancestors are registered/titled/koered/rated with the SV, would that be sufficient proof of said titles/ratings or do I have to provide my own proof along with my application?

Thanks for any and all help

Ash
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 03:20 PM
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You can email the SV on the titles. I know I had to find copies of Leyna's to send in because they are Czech, not SV. They should be in the system if they are SV though.

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 03:57 PM
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I do not see the point of the dual reg. Lots of US people have dogs bred in Germany and they are AKC dogs that show and compete with WDA or USCA. The SV is not going to prevent you from bringing your bitch to a German/SV male if your dog is AKC registered. The AKC is the FCI recognized registry in the USA, not SV. My dog was bred in Germany, his dam was brought there for the breeding and then brought back since the breeder is American. I doubt the SV will recognize any titles/awards not given by an SV judge (so anything USCA) but again, I don't see why this matters unless you want to SV register American-bred litters? I asked about this when I USCA registered my dogs and was told there was no reason to pay more for SV dual which is not actual SV registration anyway so I registered both just the USCA so that I can do a USCA breed survey and/or participate in their Sieger Show if I choose.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting...
I will double check with my breeder about the rules to breed in Germany, but I am certain you are correct Lies. I don't know why I thought the dog has to have SV recognized titles, koer and ratings to breed in Germany. I think I am confusing SV reg litters with German studs used for breeding with foreign bitches. You are right that her litters will be registered under the AKC as she will whelp here.

I wanted to get my trial forms postmarked by Nov 1, but I'm cutting it very close as I don't have her registration # or scorebook #! I might just end up having to swallow the late fee for this one...

Ash
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:17 PM
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Well under the SV you are right, but we live in the USA and thus do not have to follow SV rules. Our dogs are AKC registered. As far as I know the USCA registration is just some random thing we have to do if we want USCA breed surveys or showing adult dogs at the Sieger Show (or maybe it's a money-maker). I thought in order for a dog to have real SV papers the dog would have been registered with the SV at birth.

Now if you want to SV register your litters then I think you are right about getting SV registration and following their rules for titles but I do not see why this would matter unless you plan to move to Germany permanently. My dog is not SV registered but was conceived in Germany by an SV male. He is AKC registered as is his dam and as will be his progeny. To register him we had to fill out an additional form from the AKC (we faxed it to the stud owner in Germany and he signed off, since the stud is not AKC registered).

Depending on where you live, if you must do everything through the SV you might severely limit your opportunities because that means only doing WDA events that have SV judges. This is why I am a USCA member. USCA will accept show cards and titles awarded by SV judges at WDA events. They don't like it but they have no choice. Since I am a USCA member I can do USCA events with my dogs but also do WDA events because they don't always require that you are a member and if they do, that is what my co-owner (husband) is for.

Last edited by Liesje; 10-22-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
(or maybe it's a money-maker)


For now, I am not planning on trying to get pink papers on her litters. I very much doubt any of her progeny will show or breed in Germany exclusively. If for some vague reason that happened, I can just get her titled under a SV judge at that time.

Yes, you are right. My female's dam was also bred to a SV male and the dam is 3rd generation Am. bred. All pups had regular AKC papers and I don't think the dam had anything special over the normal USA titles/kkl1/V and AKC papers.

There aren't many WDA events around me - USA is the way to go for sure. Good call on the co-owner setup. I finally have some motivation to wrangle a husband!

haha I never realized I had it so easy on co-ownerships. What a pain to navigate through it all by yourself!

I think I will end up just doing the USA reg. I suppose for some reason if I change my mind, I can just get dual reg done later. The dual reg is more involved anyhow, and I am not sure if I have the time to get that done in time for the trial.

Ash
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:35 PM
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Yep that is what I did and so far have had no reason to add the additional registration. In fact I still do not understand the point of the USCA paper since my dogs are already fully AKC registered with a certified pedigree, but whatev!
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:44 PM
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Only dogs born in Germany get "pink papers" - ie - Full SV registration....if you want to do hip ratings, or koer with an SV judge - then the USA/SV - if you are just going to show under the USA judges and don't care about the koer 'counting' - regardless of breeding here as opposed to in Germany (all you really need for THAT is an AKC 4 gen pedigree anyway!)....

USCA wants dogs - and litters - registered with THEM to be shown etc...it is simply a revenue stream -

I usually do the USCA/SV because I like the German judges (carefully selected ones anyway!) better than the USA (conformation)

Lee

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:49 PM
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But USCA/SV judges are still not the same as SV. USCA/SV koerung doesn't count either.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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I was reading through this article by F. Lanting and this is his take on AKC reg dogs required to be a part of other member organizations:

"In the U.S., “Is your dog registered?” or, further south, “Hey, Bubba, is yo’ dawg pedigreed?” to most people means “Does the AKC have records of your dog’s ancestry and do they attest to its purity and the pedigree’s accuracy?” Until DNA started to become popular or required, those assurances from AKC were worth no more than anybody else’s. Most of us know how easy it was for a puppy mill to “register” pups, using “papers” from phantom, perhaps never-existed, parents. Even with random inspections, the puppy farm could easily say that the parents had been given away or sold, or had died. The notorious traffic in “little blue pieces of paper” (now different color and bigger) is what made AKC’s treasury so fat and their army of lawyers and bureaucrats so large. Thus, millions of dogs have been presented as both purebred and having descended from certain ancestors, while a substantial percentage actually had different parentage than shown on the “certified” registration or pedigree papers. Different organizations have different confidence levels in the public minds. For example, the modern SV (German GSD club) pedigrees are perhaps the most accurate in the world, partly because of the Teutonic discipline and (more recently) partly because DNA samples must now be taken and recorded. Stiff penalties will be meted to those who attempt to cheat now. Even before the advent of DNA, fewer cases of fraud had been practiced in Germany than in the U.S.; therefore, the registrations were more meaningful, on average. I can give you a handwritten pedigree and say the pup you buy from me is “registered” with my own registry (filing cabinet, computer), or I can give you that AKC paper, which might be no more accurate but carries more widespread recognition, or I could give you the SV Ahnentafel-pedigree (or equivalent) accompanied by the DNA certifications and a kit for you to send in a DNA sample of the pup if you wanted proof of the parentage."

So I suppose in a way, you could argue that additional breed-specific registries increase the confidence levels about the legitimacy of the dog's pedigree, titles, etc.

I just wish there was one organization to join with a clear cut fee structure and application process. Figuring out this bureaucratic nonsense is almost enough to make you get out of dogs!

Ash
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