What is acceptable training? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
hunterisgreat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,788
What is acceptable training?

I'm interested in hearing other perspectives... I'll offer a parallel scenario to consider before answering. In WWII it was observed that the majority of combatants in a firefight did not actually return fire or engage in the fight. The fights were won or lost by a minority on either side. In order to increase these odds, the military began using pop-up man shaped targets to condition the response of firing at man shaped things. This dramatically increased the rate of engagement by Vietnam, however the rate of diagnosed PTSD or the presence of PTSD symptoms (whether you consider it valid or not) has dramatically increased. I personally believe this is a result of "tricking" or "conditioning" poorly nerved or unsound men into exacting violence on another. It is unjust to put them in this scenario... they should have been identified and removed before setting foot on a battlefield. Ironically, there are now studies conducted to explore ways to reduce the stress associated with exacting violence on another in combat to reduce the after effects presently experienced. I consider this to be a gravely dangerous path

In parallel, steadily the ability of drill instructors and leadership to truly test the "temperament" and "nerve" of their troops has been increasingly diminished over time in favor of political correctness and the complaints of a public & persons rejected from that system who do not understand the utility or nature of a practice thousands of years in the making (that we have written down), and arguably in existence since the origin of all species. In the case of the military I personally believe it is unjust to send someone into to harms way to fight for any cause and ask them to trade their life for yours without properly equipping them to the best of our ability. Equipping them includes providing equally sound and effective brothers in arms. Removing the traditions and measures to weed out poor soldiers & combatants is a failure to properly equip them. I believe this is why hazing does exist, is present in the military, and will always be present in any strong effective fighting force despite anyone's attempt to remove it. Simply, men must be tested and trialed by fire before they can be trusted and relied upon in extreme stress. They should not be "fooled" into performing their mission through conditioned response or any other measure. They should choose to act so.

I often see similar threads of behavior within training protection (sport or "real") dogs. People who cringe at the dog getting anything beyond a "ceremonial" stick hit, or even seeing a dog work outside of prey drive. I think it should be critically important to the breed that we do test dogs to the greatest degree so that those dogs unable to deal with stress and adversity can be weeded out. Corrections = stress. Biting a man = more stress. Fighting back when someone hits you = even more stress. Fighting back when someone stabs you in an alley = extreme stress. I want my dogs, and my grunts in the last group

I'm reminded of screwing up in the military and being told "We can do the paperwork and give you a page 11 or we can go behind the building and sort this out". Anyone ever presented with the option that I know of has always gone with option B. Anyone who selected the prior option, I'd argue didn't belong in a fighting force to begin with. I'd expect public opinion to cringe at that, however if they are not ready to put themselves in harms way I'd respectfully ask them hold their opinion on matters they do not understand. It was a correction, and a deserved one... nothing more, nothing less. No hurt feelings, and taken with a modicum of pride in confidence that you can take more than they can be put upon you. I believe an ideal, sound dog should take a correction and training the same. I believe a dog that cannot, does not belong on the field. I believe if you looked at the training of a modern US fighting man under the same lens many measure the training of an IPO or protection dog, you'd find that most IPO dogs have a far easier time.

Thoughts?

Hunter, CWDC UScA Helper
Beschützer des Jägers v.d. Sportwaffen
Katya v. Hügelblick
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald
Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
Arya v. Allrothaus
hunterisgreat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 08:40 PM
jae
Master Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: IA
Posts: 701
Dogs are not humans. Humans can lie about anything they please, but a dog will show their emotions outright. I can't speak about evaluating a dog's temperament and soundness and the steps that go through it. I do know that however a dog is evaluated for this work should be done professionally and with years of experience, this is not something that I ever thought should be taken lightly, for both the dog and the handler is at risk if something is missed. If the dog can take it, great, they will be happy and trained. If the dog can't take it, then the dog will not be happy and will be a liability. You can't ever have a liability in the working field, and if you do, good luck to your department.

Elementary students are taught, and this carries through to the real adult world, "The laboratory is only as safe as the least safe person."

** Comment removed by ADMIN**

Last edited by jae; 10-15-2012 at 08:49 PM.
jae is offline  
post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
hunterisgreat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,788
** Off topic commetns removed**

And what exactly is the point of selectively breeding these high drive dogs of great stamina, courage, heart, and nerve if not to provide a bases for MWD or PPD? There is a *reason* DDR dogs are held in such high regard...

Hunter, CWDC UScA Helper
Beschützer des Jägers v.d. Sportwaffen
Katya v. Hügelblick
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald
Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
Arya v. Allrothaus
hunterisgreat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:33 PM
Master Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gettysburg,PA
Posts: 885
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
There is a *reason* DDR dogs are held in such high regard...
Why? Because they are pretty?

Don't get me wrong. You can get some good things from bringing in the right dogs, but most breeders advertising about DDR are breeding nothing more than sable showlines.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Art

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zahnburg is offline  
post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
hunterisgreat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahnburg View Post
Why? Because they are pretty?

Don't get me wrong. You can get some good things from bringing in the right dogs, but most breeders advertising about DDR are breeding nothing more than sable showlines.
I am referring to the original DDR dogs, which are as far as I understand it, lost to history having been diluted too much to mean anything at this point. I dunno that most even find them "pretty".

As I understand it, at the fall of the wall, the dogs coming out of East Germany and other former soviet republics had a dramatically lower rate of HD and other maladies, and were much sounder nerve & harder dogs (and better working dogs in general) compared to non-state controlled breeding programs. I wasn't there, so I am only saying what I've been told and read. The same phenomenon is occurring now in Moscow with their bomb dogs at which are a strictly controlled breeding program.

Hunter, CWDC UScA Helper
Beschützer des Jägers v.d. Sportwaffen
Katya v. Hügelblick
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald
Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
Arya v. Allrothaus
hunterisgreat is offline  
post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:44 PM
Administrator & LOTR Addict
 
lhczth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Posts: 18,719
The question being asked in this topic is fine. Let's leave out the personal, political stuff and anything that has to do with human training in the military.

THANK YOU,

ADMIN Lisa

Lisa Clark

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB (the ugly little sable) IPO2 KKL B/HOT, Jarka (up and coming) BHOT, and gone but not forgotten,
Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT



lhczth is offline  
post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:49 PM
Crowned Member
 
Whiteshepherds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Verde Valley - Arizona
Posts: 3,832
Interesting post if I understood it correctly. I do agree that when a dogs intended purpose is to protect and defend, you have to test the dog and some of that won't be viewed as being humane to an outsider. Do it behind closed doors and don't post it on YouTube if it crosses some politically incorrect line. (not you personally) There are some things better left unsaid except to those who understand.
Whiteshepherds is offline  
post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
hunterisgreat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds View Post
Interesting post if I understood it correctly. I do agree that when a dogs intended purpose is to protect and defend, you have to test the dog and some of that won't be viewed as being humane to an outsider. Do it behind closed doors and don't post it on YouTube if it crosses some politically incorrect line. (not you personally) There are some things better left unsaid except to those who understand.
On the one hand I agree that that is an effective short term approach, but I feel that it is a failure in the longterm. Ultimately people will out and destroy that. For the long term success, people must come to understand the nature of it and not look the other way or merely have it hidden from them.

Hunter, CWDC UScA Helper
Beschützer des Jägers v.d. Sportwaffen
Katya v. Hügelblick
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald
Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
Arya v. Allrothaus
hunterisgreat is offline  
post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 11:01 PM
Master Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gettysburg,PA
Posts: 885
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
As I understand it, at the fall of the wall....
This was in '89. Why do people still talk about DDR dogs in a current tense 23 years after there was a DDR?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Art

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zahnburg is offline  
post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
hunterisgreat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahnburg View Post
This was in '89. Why do people still talk about DDR dogs in a current tense 23 years after there was a DDR?
Why do we talk about past Medal of Honor recipients, make a movie about the Spartans, the Trojans, read the Iliad, teach the Bible, or discuss the Holocaust? Because the past is an appropriate and quite possibly the best/only ruler with which to measure the present?

Hunter, CWDC UScA Helper
Beschützer des Jägers v.d. Sportwaffen
Katya v. Hügelblick
SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald
Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
Arya v. Allrothaus
hunterisgreat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome