"lazy" puppy and schutzhund - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaiser2012 View Post
So, my questions:

-Is there anything I can do to make this more exciting for Kaiser?

-Can a lazy puppy mature into a more "drivey" adult?

-What traits should I be looking for in Kaiser, to determine whether or not he will make the cut, so to speak, in schutzhund?

-What can *I* do, as the handler, to develop a stronger bond with Kaiser (he is separated from Dakota during training, but not otherwise, and he very obviously is attached to her...though he is my velcro/shadow dog)

-Any non-compulsion training books to read that might help me? (I think I understand compulsion's place in the sport, but its not for me)

-Any other questions/suggestions/comments?

Thank you!!!
Don't lose hope! For about the first two months of schutzhund training, Whiskey had zero interest during bite work. He would actually sit down and start sniffing grass! I just about gave up. But around 11 months, something turned on and he became a beast. He is a fantastic dog to work and loves his bite work. He's one of the loudest and most animated now. Don't lose hope!

You could start playing lots of tug at home. I did that with Whiskey to build drive. I also had him restrained in some way and we played a lot of teasing games so he gets excited about a ball or tug. I definitely think a lazy pup can mature into a motivated adult. Some dogs just operate based on different drives and Whiskey only really came alive when we worked him more on defense after he turned a year old.

All it takes is time. Just continue training, playing and enjoying your pup. The bond will come and I think if you keep at it, you will see a different dog in a few months time. Even if he doesn't turn out to be a candidate, the experience will be a rewarding one

Ash
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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such great advice!

Kaiser ~ Jan 25, 2012 (GSD)
Dakota ~ Oct 2005 (GSD/Collie)
Mya ~ Dec 2013 (GSD)
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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 11:20 AM
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Male pups **generally** mature more slowly than females - the first few males I had were rock stars from day 1 - Ghost, Wolf, Cito and Danger and now apparently little Koug as well....but most of the pups I know of from todays popular WGR lines mature more slowly than their female peers....

I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....a couple of very very highlevel experienced trainers/helpers have critiqued her as a rock star LOL LOL without any knowledge of her 100% full time job as a pet who does not even live with me.

BUT - you can condition or "build" drive....you can also do what I call deprivation training to get more drive from the dog......

Many many many lower drive dogs are titled through diligence and conditioning rather than natural genetic talent.....if you want to train and title for fun, and understand that your first dog is a "learning experience", then do what YOU feel right for you and your dog.....I had trainers who believed dogs should live in kennels etc....I feel bad when I remember putting my dog in a kennel outside with an igloo overnight in the winter due to the trainer's INSISTENCE that he not be allowed in the house....that did not last!!!! The dog still trained and had drive and did very well (except for a few training caused long term ob issues!) and got Sch3 for me with super protection scores at every trial!

Compulsion has it's place in controlling a dog in drive. Some dogs who are genetically very "biddable" can do well without it - IMO need for compulsion is as much based on the genetics of the dog as the training philosophy. Csabre was taught dumbbells totally without compulsion - a well known German trainer held her up as a shining example of the success of a force retrieve at a seminar.....LOL....he went on and on that THIS was the best retrieve he had seen there....and THIS was what you got with a FA - I just told him quietly that this was "not FA".... several times - it was kind of funny when I told him -very quietly !!! - I did the retrieves with a clicker.....he threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the whole group...and her daughter will do retrieves just as nicely with barely any training except the front and out....so in my mind, obedience training success is as much genetics of the dog as philosophy.

Lee

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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 11:56 AM
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I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....
Yep, if it's there, it's there, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. When I first got Vinca, I figured she was a lower-drive puppy, which was absolutely FINE with me as I didn't plan on doing sport or anything. So I did absolutely nothing to try and "build" drive. It showed up anyway!
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstraum View Post
Male pups **generally** mature more slowly than females - the first few males I had were rock stars from day 1 - Ghost, Wolf, Cito and Danger and now apparently little Koug as well....but most of the pups I know of from todays popular WGR lines mature more slowly than their female peers....

I have done pups from 9 weeks and trained them, and had others I let go to over a year before working....one of my girls lives with friends, as a pet, constantly has a cuz or toy in her mouth, and when I finally got to start working her was super drivy....nothing was done to "build" drive - it was there....a couple of very very highlevel experienced trainers/helpers have critiqued her as a rock star LOL LOL without any knowledge of her 100% full time job as a pet who does not even live with me.

BUT - you can condition or "build" drive....you can also do what I call deprivation training to get more drive from the dog......

Many many many lower drive dogs are titled through diligence and conditioning rather than natural genetic talent.....if you want to train and title for fun, and understand that your first dog is a "learning experience", then do what YOU feel right for you and your dog.....I had trainers who believed dogs should live in kennels etc....I feel bad when I remember putting my dog in a kennel outside with an igloo overnight in the winter due to the trainer's INSISTENCE that he not be allowed in the house....that did not last!!!! The dog still trained and had drive and did very well (except for a few training caused long term ob issues!) and got Sch3 for me with super protection scores at every trial!

Compulsion has it's place in controlling a dog in drive. Some dogs who are genetically very "biddable" can do well without it - IMO need for compulsion is as much based on the genetics of the dog as the training philosophy. Csabre was taught dumbbells totally without compulsion - a well known German trainer held her up as a shining example of the success of a force retrieve at a seminar.....LOL....he went on and on that THIS was the best retrieve he had seen there....and THIS was what you got with a FA - I just told him quietly that this was "not FA".... several times - it was kind of funny when I told him -very quietly !!! - I did the retrieves with a clicker.....he threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the whole group...and her daughter will do retrieves just as nicely with barely any training except the front and out....so in my mind, obedience training success is as much genetics of the dog as philosophy.

Lee
what a fantastic response! thank you!!

Kaiser ~ Jan 25, 2012 (GSD)
Dakota ~ Oct 2005 (GSD/Collie)
Mya ~ Dec 2013 (GSD)
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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 05:32 PM
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you're welcome.....

just don't do any thing that makes you unhappy.....don't argue it - just don't DO it! If the trainers are handling your dog too roughly - just find other training or change directions....it will not end well if you are unhappy....

If the dog has the genetic drive to work, then he will work....wait him out awhile and do tracking foundation....he is your responsibility and you have to do what is best for him in the long run....

Good luck

Lee

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2012, 05:42 PM
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I have a dog that is in this boat. She is 1.5yrs old, great at obedience and tracking but loses interest in bite work very quickly. She has tremendous prey drive, food drive and enjoys playing with ball and tug, but when it comes to bite work she could care less. Some days she shows a spark of real interest and performs well, but generally she loses interest after a few bites. She doesn't have stamina issues (I don't believe) as she is well exercised as we take regular 5-6 mile walks. It's hard to say what is really going on with her at bitework, maybe a mixture of uncertainty and lack of interest. I think also having a different helper on club day (saturday) vs the helper on Wednesday is confusing her. The Saturday helper is a late teen kid and not as experienced. I'm considering sticking to puppy bite (tug bitework) on Saturdays and leaving the real bitework until the weekday session with more experienced handler.
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-27-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pfitzpa1 View Post
I have a dog that is in this boat. She is 1.5yrs old, great at obedience and tracking but loses interest in bite work very quickly. She has tremendous prey drive, food drive and enjoys playing with ball and tug, but when it comes to bite work she could care less. Some days she shows a spark of real interest and performs well, but generally she loses interest after a few bites. She doesn't have stamina issues (I don't believe) as she is well exercised as we take regular 5-6 mile walks. It's hard to say what is really going on with her at bitework, maybe a mixture of uncertainty and lack of interest. I think also having a different helper on club day (saturday) vs the helper on Wednesday is confusing her. The Saturday helper is a late teen kid and not as experienced. I'm considering sticking to puppy bite (tug bitework) on Saturdays and leaving the real bitework until the weekday session with more experienced handler.
The skill and knowledge of the helper is the key to training!!!! I have seen/know of pups where a club helper cannot get a response at all - condemn the pup as 'no drive' and 'weak nerved'....when the pup really has tons of drive and solid nerves....one pup I sold (pre tested by several trainers - both nationally known SAR and well respected schutzhund helper) was evaluated by a couple of small club novice helpers who could not get anything from her - the dog was then seen by a more experienced knowledgable trainer who immediately got the dog into drive and showed everything the owner and I knew was there....IMO there is no point in working a pup with a trainer/decoy/helper who is not knowledgable enough to get the pup into drive and sustain it...if the t/d/h cannot read the pup correctly - you are wasting your time and possibly going backwards with the dog.

The flip side is that if a very good, experienced t/d/h cannot sustain interest in the work, the dog may not have the genetic foundation to succeed in training.

Lee

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-27-2012, 08:35 AM
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Like Lee said!
We have 2 brand new helpers at our club and my 18mos old girl doesn't work well on them. The first time she actually sat down and did the head tilt thing to him, the whole club cracked up. So one of the experienced helpers walked over and just made one tiny movement and she lit up. For the next few weeks we only had her get maybe 1 bite from the new guy (how can he get better at it without the practice?).
My husband and I both feel like the girls at this age are pretty "moody" and can be unsure. They need to be supported through this time, encouraged and not made to feel threatened or unsure. They will shut down and come back to the handler (assuming they trust the handler) which will cause issues.
I'm living with a teenage daughter right now who can blow hot and cold, so I just try to remember that it is just a phase with both LOL. My daughter and the dog will both mature through this and will be grown up soon enough. Just like my daughter seems pretty grown up, she would absolutely collapse if I sent her to college right now. The dog is the same way, she seems pretty much grown up, but she is not ready for some of the work yet, but will be soon enough. In the meantime, an experienced helper is what she needs.
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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-27-2012, 11:44 AM
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Like Lee said!
We have 2 brand new helpers at our club and my 18mos old girl doesn't work well on them. The first time she actually sat down and did the head tilt thing to him, the whole club cracked up. So one of the experienced helpers walked over and just made one tiny movement and she lit up. For the next few weeks we only had her get maybe 1 bite from the new guy (how can he get better at it without the practice?).
My husband and I both feel like the girls at this age are pretty "moody" and can be unsure. They need to be supported through this time, encouraged and not made to feel threatened or unsure. They will shut down and come back to the handler (assuming they trust the handler) which will cause issues.
I'm living with a teenage daughter right now who can blow hot and cold, so I just try to remember that it is just a phase with both LOL. My daughter and the dog will both mature through this and will be grown up soon enough. Just like my daughter seems pretty grown up, she would absolutely collapse if I sent her to college right now. The dog is the same way, she seems pretty much grown up, but she is not ready for some of the work yet, but will be soon enough. In the meantime, an experienced helper is what she needs.
Thanks, that's comforting to know. I'm doing Sch mostly as a fun thing my dog and I can participate in together, so I am in no rush. I'm going to stick with the more experienced handler and take it slow.
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