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completely scared off

10K views 80 replies 25 participants last post by  Smithie86 
#1 ·
the pup and i went to visit/watch training at a local club yesterday and we saw...

constant, HARD jerking on prongs,
yelling,
kicking,
pulling ears,
yelping from shock collars,
etc.

i just finished reading sheila booth's purely positive training and needless to say what we saw was horrible. most of this was done by the director of the club during the obidience stuff and she wonders why one of her four dogs pulled, twisted, fought and would not sit as they were about to begin bite work. i understand that this is "old school" training and these dogs need to be tough, but i won't be going back to this club. **removed by Admin**:eek:... is this training typical at a lot of the smaller clubs? am i just naive? i have no experience training schutzhund but was very interested until yesterday. we might have to find a new sport...
 
#5 ·
I have no experience in Schutzhund training, but I did observe some of it at a place in Michigan. It was nothing like you have described. The dogs seemed to be having a positive experience. I wouldn't give up on it, just keep looking for a club that is compatible with your views on dog training.

My daughter had a foster pup for a year, and we went to a few different places before we found one that was a good match for us for obedience classes.
 
#7 ·
Did you ask why they were doing certain things?
Sometimes clubs won't do their "normal" training when guests are present.

I've seen most of what you described in a normal day of training, except the kicking isn't the norm.
I don't agree with much of it, and won't subject my dog to techniques that are not fair. But to a casual observer the training we do may seem harsh. I'm not upholding the club or their training techniques, but understanding/asking questions may help you to see the whys/whatfor's and then judge whether it was over the top.
I've seen a dog scream on electric, to bring him to go faster on the retrieve, but it wasn't the electric that was making him scream, it was his silly crazy mind! He has enthusiasm and his control isn't always balanced:) To someone not knowing the dog, they may think he was being fried.
 
#33 ·
I used to always tell visitors that my female will yell like I'm killing her even when she's on a fursaver, not being corrected, just being asked to sit. Simply to address any misconceptions before they start
 
#8 ·
I would check out some other clubs. Don't be afraid to ask questions and chat with people. It may give a new light on things being done. I have never seen kicking but have seen the other stuff. We all try to be fair to our dogs, some people just train different than others, doesn't mean it is right or wrong. Just different than the you/me/others would want to train. Sometimes asking questions clears up some confusion about certain things!
 
#9 ·
That's to bad. When I went to visit our local PSA club I saw a lot of happy, willing dogs. I did see some prongs, but no corrections harder than what I've delivered in our "95% positive" obedience class. One dog was wearing an e-collar for some work at a distance from the handler, but again the dog was happy and engaged. I never knew if they used the e-collar or not.

I will say that if you're set on using 100% positive training, Schutzhund may not be the sport for you. Part of the protection aspect involves putting the dogs in stressful situations.
 
#10 ·
corrections are fine, stress is fine...

but this was beat the dog down until he does what you want (in the obedience not bite work) and from my perspective it wasn't working. the other members seemed a bit more laid back and more acceptable style. the problem was this was the director of the club doing these things...
 
#11 ·
As long as you hold the end of the leash, your dog will receive the treatment and training you administer. Now if they were making others train this way or if there was nobody training the way you feel comfortable with....then run. But I don't let others methods affect me and my dog unless they try to impose it on me. I doubt you will find a club in which some members aren't more heavy handed than others(minus the kicking). (And even with that, there's a difference in kicking a dog outright, and using your foot very quickly to correct a position oh the heel ).
 
#13 · (Edited)
the kicking was to get a stand from a sit. basically kicking the dogs gut right by his hind leg to get him up...

again, i hope it doesnt sound like i am judging. i have never titled a dog in anything and am very new to all this. it all just made me very uncomfortable. i don't coddle my dog and am very stern at times. i just don't see the neccessity of over using physical force as smart as these dogs are...

to each his own. i know im on the end of the leash for my dog and he is in the crate when you train yours... but i don't want to promote and watch you beat your dog into submission. so yes, i will be looking for a different club or perhaps even sport.
 
#14 ·
the kicking was to get a stand from a sit. basically kicking the dogs gut right by his hind leg to get him up...
Huh. . . I teach stand by taking my toe and kind of nudging that area. . . can't imagine why you'd need a kick, that's a pretty sensitive body zone.



to each his own. i know im on the end of the leash for my dog and he is in the crate when you train yours... but i don't want to promote and watch you beat your dog into submission. so yes, i will be looking for a different club or perhaps even sport.
No, I agree with you. I haven't dealt with it with dogs, but when I was riding cutting and team penning horses I left training groups for the same reason. I realize I'm not the one kicking my horse with spurs until blood runs down its side, but I can't stand here and watch you do it either. And yeah, I am judging. Some stuff there's no excuse for.
 
#16 ·
We didn't see what you saw so I'm not really sure what we can be expected to say. Everyone has their own goals, their own comfort levels. I can be in a club where people train dogs I don't like using methods I don't like and be just fine. There are some things I will not tolerate but so far the clubs I've trained with have never gone to that level, so I can agree to disagree on things and not leave the club. If I was feeling pressured to do something with my dogs I didn't agree with, I'd leave. There are always other trainers, other clubs, or you can start your own club.
 
#17 ·
We didn't see what you saw so I'm not really sure what we can be expected to say. Everyone has their own goals, their own comfort levels. I can be in a club where people train dogs I don't like using methods I don't like and be just fine. There are some things I will not tolerate but so far the clubs I've trained with have never gone to that level, so I can agree to disagree on things and not leave the club. If I was feeling pressured to do something with my dogs I didn't agree with, I'd leave. There are always other trainers, other clubs, or you can start your own club.
would you pay to teach at a school where some teachers thought beating kids was ok? the problem lies in the fact that i would be paying fees and supporting this club. i wouldn't feel pressured into their mentallity of training, but im not going to support it.

i understand you didnt see what i saw. so far i have read three books entirely on schutzhund training and watched countless videos. i have never seen anything more than a quick jerk on a prong for corrections. the lack of shock and awe at these posts leaves me believing schutzhund training is not where i thought it was and still mostly compulsion training. thanks for all the responses, especially the supportive ones.
 
#18 ·
I'm saying I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw or how it is being framed. As I said I do have some standards and won't stick around even if *I'm* not the one doing it, but I guess I've been lucky so far with the couple of clubs I've trained with as a member or a guest I have not observed dogs being abused (in my opinion).

The lack of shock and awe is because no one saw what you saw and a public forum is probably not the appropriate place to call people out on that without more detail. Did you raise your concerns with the TD or explained how you felt and why you would not be back?
 
#19 · (Edited)
I'm saying I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw or how it is being framed. As I said I do have some standards and won't stick around even if *I'm* not the one doing it, but I guess I've been lucky so far with the couple of clubs I've trained with as a member or a guest I have not observed dogs being abused (in my opinion).

The lack of shock and awe is because no one saw what you saw and a public forum is probably not the appropriate place to call people out on that without more detail. Did you raise your concerns with the TD or explained how you felt and why you would not be back?
am i calling someone out? i was there as a guest and was in no place to tell them how to train their dogs. i'm sure they have far more experience in this realm than i. so no, i didnt share my concerns. they can train their dogs as they like. this post was to ask: am i naive? is this normal? should i look for a different sport?
 
#20 ·
I'm just not sure what you want people here to say? "Oh yes, Schh is abusive and don't do it if you won't abuse your dog." No, maybe for some people but for most people here I don't get that vibe at all. There is no "normal", every club is a different combination of dogs, trainers, methods, experiences. Many people here drive 2-3 hours to train with one club and pass on clubs that are 30 minutes away. It's all about fit but what's important to you may not matter to someone else.
 
#22 ·
:(
I'm just not sure what you want people here to say? "Oh yes, Schh is abusive and don't do it if you won't abuse your dog." No, maybe for some people but for most people here I don't get that vibe at all. There is no "normal", every club is a different combination of dogs, trainers, methods, experiences. Many people here drive 2-3 hours to train with one club and pass on clubs that are 30 minutes away. It's all about fit but what's important to you may not matter to someone else.
just curious and want more info....

it was the first club i visited and i was shocked to say the least.
 
#21 ·
I have competed with dogs since the early 80's and I can guarantee that you will not find a dog sport that doesn't have some trainers that train with methods you may deem too harsh. You just need to find a club/trainer where you can be comfortable no matter the type of training or sport you eventually chose.
 
#23 · (Edited)
All we can say is visit more clubs. If there are people here that train using methods you or I might consider abusive I doubt they will come out and say so (or they won't consider their training abusive). Even if you loved this club we would still recommend to try as many clubs as you can before making the decision. I'm not trying to pick on you but look at it from the other perspective...there are people here (not me) who have done this for decades and put their blood and sweat into training dogs right and helping other people train dogs right so it can be unnerving when someone comes in and asks whether all clubs have TDs who kick their dogs around. I've had so many people help me in so many ways, way more experiences with that than people I can't watch train, I would hate for people to assume the sport as a whole is abusive. Don't let one person ruin it for you or anyone else, if you want to do SchH there is a club out there for you it's just a matter of finding the fit.
 
#25 ·
All we can say is visit more clubs. If there are people here that train using methods you or I might consider abusive I doubt they will come out and say so (or they won't consider their training abusive). Even if you loved this club we would still recommend to try as many clubs as you can before making the decision. I'm not trying to pick on you but look at it from the other perspective...there are people here who have done this for decades and put their blood and sweat into training dogs right and helping other people train dogs right so it can be unnerving when someone comes in and asks whether all clubs have TDs who kick their dogs around. Don't let one person ruin it for you or anyone else.
i apologize. maybe my thread title and first post was too harsh, but this is the exact response i was looking for. thank you. you have given me hope.
 
#24 · (Edited)
It's too bad that you didn't like what you saw...Schutzhund training is the one part of my week that I fully and completely look forward to (I drive 2 hours each way).

Like Lies said, we have our own sense of what we can deal with seeing or what's being done at different clubs and I think that if you REALLY want to do this, you should make a few more visits to that club as well as try to find other clubs to make a couple visits to.

Talk to the TD and ask him/her why they use those methods and what other methods they use on other/different dogs...I'm not condoning the abuse of dogs during training, but perhaps they had an independent/dominant dog with high pain/correction thresholds.

As a new person to the sport, I think it would be invaluable to you to visit with and talk to as many clubs/people/trainers/handlers as possible. This way, even if you see what you don't like, you will be able to get a better grasp on what you DO like so that you can communicate that with you TD or Sch helper you are working with.

Last, I LOVE Sheila Booth's books...but they are only just one training method/technique out there. I use many of her techniques...but not all of them, as the dogs I have/had do require some compulsion and stress/corrections to perform well. This is something, that with time, you will understand better by not just reading and watching videos, but by exposing yourself to as much as possible and actually apply it and/or see it being applied.

Good luck! :)
 
#26 ·
It's too bad that you didn't like what you saw...Schutzhund training is the one part of my week that I fully and completely look forward to (I drive 2 hours each way).

Like Lies said, we have our own sense of what we can deal with seeing or what's being done at different clubs and I think that if you REALLY want to do this, you should make a few more visits to that club as well as try to find other clubs to make a couple visits to.

Talk to the TD and ask him/her why they use those methods and what other methods they use on other/different dogs...I'm not condoning the abuse of dogs during training, but perhaps they had an independent/dominant dog with high pain/correction thresholds.

As a new person to the sport, I think it would be invaluable to you to visit with and talk to as many clubs/people/trainers/handlers as possible. This way, even if you see what you don't like, you will be able to get a better grasp on what you DO like so that you can communicate that with you TD or Sch helper you are working with.

Last, I LOVE Sheila Booth's books...but they are only just one training method/technique out there. I use many of her techniques...but not all of them, as the dogs I have/had do require some compulsion and stress/corrections to perform well. This is something, that with time, you will understand better by not just reading and watching videos, but by exposing yourself to as much as possible and actually apply it and/or see it being applied.

Good luck! :)
great advise. thank you.

having a young pup just puts me in an idealistic mind set i guess. i know the truth comes through experience and it can be extremely trying at times, but also very rewarding for me as well as my pup.
 
#27 ·
If you want a true idea of what SchH is about, use multiple resources to properly educate yourself about the sport. Read books, forum posts, online resources, visit clubs and watch videos. Schh is difficult and takes a lot of perseverance. People (including me) take offense when a sport that we put our heart and soul into is attacked by someone observing the sport for the first time. It's just an instant gut reaction because we do put a LOT of money, effort and time into this. There are multiple ways to train a dog and Schh is done in many different ways. No one dog can be trained exactly like another. Some dogs do need hard corrections because they are hard dogs. If the trainer is worth it, they will fairly use the appropriate corrections on the dogs that need it. You were just an observer and it was your first time. I can't say for sure what was actually going on at this club. I am sure if you came to my club, you could find training methods that you disagreed with.

Observe different clubs, ask why certain methods are being used, educate yourself on the history and purpose of Schh and then make a well-rounded estimation on if you want to pursue this sport or not. Different clubs approach training differently. I have a club 5 mins down the street that I choose not to attend because I disagree with their practices. I drive 1.5hrs each way to go to a club that I absolutely love. We have a member that drives 5 hours each way and gets up at 4AM on a Sat to make it to training. Like Hillary said, Schh is without a doubt the highlight of my week. I can't describe the feeling of euphoria that I get when I pull into the Schh field. It's worth it to us because the positive aspects of the sport outweigh the negativity. I am sure there are trainers out there that still tie a dog up a pole and beat the daylights out of it, but I don't let negative aspects of the sport sour the entire experience. There is bad in most anything out there, it's up to us to make an educated estimation about the sport as a whole.
 
#29 ·
And that's exactly the sort of thing that people that love Schh don't want to see happen. When posts like this are read by newcomers, it immediately turns them off and generates negative publicity for the sport. Those that do and love the sport know what the sport can be....try not to let one or two negative secondhand experiences ruin an otherwise great sport...
 
#31 · (Edited)
My second post was referring to Mariel and an example of how your post on your first outing showcases negative aspects of the sport which in turn are going to deter other people from further exploring the sport. This sport cannot survive if we don't get new blood. Did you speak to the trainer and gain some information on WHY things were done as they were? I am not attacking you at all. I am genuinely interested. I would be curious as to what the trainer says.

Now onto the positive aspects:
1. You gain an incredible bond with your dog. It is absolutely one of the most rewarding experiences when you gain that level of understanding with your dog. I thought I loved my dog. But after Schh, there needs to be a new word for what I have now with my dog.
2. Schh carries over into "real life". The obedience, control and skills that my dogs learn at Schh make them better dogs.
3. Ability to keep cool under stress. Not just for the dogs, for me as well. Handling large, high energy animals under the stress of bitework and training has done wonders for both the dogs and me. My dogs are infinitely more coolheaded after Schh. My dog with shaky nerves is like a new dog after being out in the Schh field.
4. Physical exercise for the dogs and me. Working dogs is without a doubt my favorite workout. I haven't even opened the door to my gym since I started Schh. Workouts were something I had to before Schh, now it's the highlight of my day.
5. Competition. I was an athlete in school and college. Now out in the real world, I was lacking that in my life. I wanted real competition and a challenge to work towards. Schh keeps me in that athlete mind frame. I don't focus every minute of my day on Schh, but it gets me through the rest of my day. Waking up before dawn, running and working the dogs sounds like a chore for some people, but for me, it's like a drug. I am incredibly competitive and very driven. I also love team sports. My dog and I are a team that take on this sport. I love this sport more than any other sport I have participated in. It combines my love of dogs with a love of competition, physical activity and teamwork.
6. Relationships formed with other people and dogs. I have met some incredible people through this sport and they will remain my lifelong friends. After Schh training on Sat, my club has a potluck type lunch where we drink a lot and talk dogs. It beats any fancy bar out there :) My dog friends aren't friends...they are family

There are more and hopefully others can help me out, but I am drawing a blank right now on more. It's like looking at a marathon runner and wondering why they do it. We do it because we have to. The sport gives us a sense of fulfillment that other activities don't come close to. At least for me, Schh is a lifelong journey that I take with my dogs. Not all of them will do well, but it is the journey that I love. The time we spend together working toward an ultimate goal is priceless. That is Schh for me.
 
#32 ·
If you are interested in doing the sport, keep looking until you find a outlet that you are comfortable with. In my opinion, the most important thing is to keep it fun for the dog. Keep them wanting more. We have to remember that these poor animals really have no choice in who ownes them or what we do with them. Treat them with dignity and let the dog go as far as they are willing to go. (I am no expert, I am just learning myself but I never want to loose compasion for my animals in the name of winning).
 
#34 ·
Did someone evaluate your pup? It is not as much as only you being interested in Schutzhund, the dog has to be interested too. What you are complaining about is secondary, primary goal should be to determine if the sport is feasible and the dog is an important part of the equation. Training methods, likes and dislikes are secondary.
 
#35 ·
Did someone evaluate your pup? It is not as much as only you being interested in Schutzhund, the dog has to be interested too. What you are complaining about is secondary, primary goal should be to determine if the sport is feasible and the dog is an important part of the equation. Training methods, likes and dislikes are secondary.
as pack leader i am responsible for protecting pack members. no i didnt get an eval and no i won't force him when i find a good club.
 
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