Sport or Breed test - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-12-2010, 01:04 AM Thread Starter
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Sport or Breed test

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Originally Posted by Aamer Sachedina View Post

Schutzhund has become a sport although it was meant to be a breed test.
I know that this is the accepted "knowledge", but can anyone prove this? I read everything I can about GSDs and if it's published in English I probably have it in my library. And the mentions of it being a breed test come decades after schutzhund started. If it's a breed test why does it have points? If it's a breed test, why is there another thing called a breed test? Why do you need both?
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 12:47 AM
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Interesting and profound questions. I sure as heck don't know the answer and have wondered about points thing and the breed survey myself. Anything that you give out points for is bound to become a sport. A breed test IMHO should have three scores: NOT SUITABLE for breeding, SUITABLE for breeding, EXCELLENT for breeding. Thats it.

I guess I have blindly accepted the conventional knowledge.

If it i was meant to be a sport then I'd say it is poorly designed as a it can be very subjective vs. the ringsports which seem more objective wrt. counting meters that the decoy gets away and so on. There is subjectivity to belgian ring in the grip evaluation too guess but far more subjectivity in all parts of Sch for it to be a well designed sport don't you think? I would think that if the Germans wanted to design it as a sport, it would have been very very objective.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 01:04 AM
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I am going to screw up what I am trying to say here but oh well. The judging is done by category and you have to get so many points to be very good or sufficient etc. in each category. When the judge gives a crtique, they usually will say what rating your dog got in that category/exercise.
A breed survey is similar in that it assigns ratings of very good , excellent etc. So, you could say the points are secondary and are only supposed to be counted to determine the V, SG, G , rating etc. Only thing is, spectators and handlers are so busy there listening to the critique and adding up what they think the points will be, they kind of miss the rest. The scores are also what is published vs the ratings but you get the idea.

Used to be we had the 1-10 rating for courage , hardness and fighting drive and that too was a point system but it was the same with the numbers indicating the rating of pronounced, etc. So,IMO, simply having points didn't make it just a sport.


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Last edited by Vandal; 08-13-2010 at 01:06 AM.
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 08:45 AM
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I will put this in general terms, so people can split hairs, but most I think will understand the CONCEPT.
The Sch test was created to maintain breed functionality as a working dog. The breed survey was instituted to identify suitable and recommended candidates for breeding. The two are not always mutually exclusive. There are many kickass Sch dogs that have major faults from a breeding perspective. Things such as testicles, coat, color, teeth missing, ears not standing,etc. So though these dogs themselves are great working examples of the breed, the Sch test would not measure the damage thay could do to the breed in terms advancing negative recessives. This reply is not an endorsement of either, just an explanation as to different intent of breed survey and Sch test.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 11:03 AM
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Not one to quote the Max guy often because so many seem to use them to sell what they are doing. However, these quotes seem to somewhat fit the topic. Seems people were the same then as now and had to be warned not to lose their minds.
In all my old USA magazines, starting in 1976, the term "Sport" is used often to describe SchH but only recently did I notice that because the idea of a breed test was more prevalent then. So, that term did not jump out at me when I read it then but it does now.

Max:
"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we will cease to produce working dogs. In contradistinction to working and utility breeding is sport breeding which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the DOG, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser."

"That word "SPORT" always means competition for the highest , that is true but this competition reaches it's high water mark in "exhibitions", which, just because they demand no real capabilities, lead people only too easily astray......"


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Last edited by Vandal; 08-13-2010 at 11:05 AM.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
There are many kickass Sch dogs that have major faults from a breeding perspective. Things such as testicles, coat, color, teeth missing, ears not standing,etc. So though these dogs themselves are great working examples of the breed, the Sch test would not measure the damage thay could do to the breed in terms advancing negative recessives. This reply is not an endorsement of either, just an explanation as to different intent of breed survey and Sch test.
cliffson, I think I understand what you are trying to say but then one would only expect the breed survey to have show component and how the working component that they have.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandal View Post

Max:
"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we will cease to produce working dogs. In contradistinction to working and utility breeding is sport breeding which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the DOG, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser."

"That word "SPORT" always means competition for the highest , that is true but this competition reaches it's high water mark in "exhibitions", which, just because they demand no real capabilities, lead people only too easily astray......"
Anne, from the quote it wasn't clear to me whether he was referring to Sch as a competition / sport / exhibitions or whether the intention is to refer to something else. It seems he is referring to competing for *anything* to get to the top of it.

I can understand this. The guidance to the breeder then is to ignore the scores - which is what I think good breeders should do anyway. Having points out of 300 for Sch though encourages it to be competed at as a sport. Perhaps the competition has only gotten to the level of glorification that it has after his days. How far back was the first BSP held? Where they held in his day?
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 03:40 PM
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I don't know because I don't have his book but I think Fast does. Maybe he can clarify? However, he warned the show people not to get nutty also and there were shows held at the time. So, I am assuming he is talking about SchH . He refers to Ring and KNPV in some other quotes as well. There are videos on You Tube of SchH training from 1936...or at least it says it is. Far different from the SchH of today since there is gun fire during protection, suits, broad jumps, vertical walls etc.

As for the points stuff, other than what I already said above about the ratings...... consider protection. Years ago, the dogs viewed protection work in a different way. The training was not done in a fashion that encouraged the dog to view the helper as his friend or someone he could trust to "play fair". They were going on the field expecting to find a bad guy and were judged/scored on their courage , hardness and fighting drive. Yes, the dog had to out and he could not bite when the bad guy was neutral but if you saw a score of 99, you could be pretty certain that was a nice dog and possessed the traits a GSD was supposed to have. Today, that is not really the case anymore. You might be encouraged to try to find a video of the dog to see for yourself now but for me anyway, I have to see it now to believe it is all it is supposed to be to get that 99. Of course, they have also removed the 1-10 rating and pronounced is no longer pronounced in courage , hardness and fighting drive, it is pronounced ability to deal with stress or something like that. Also, consider this quote from the USA web site from Mark P's report on WUSV Judges Meeting in 2008:

"One of the problems that has developed over the past few years, is the rating of “excellent” is given far too often. This seems to be more common as it relates to dogs of less character and genetics. In statistics gathered through Europe, dogs are given an “excellent” rating about 40% of the time. As compared to 10 plus years ago the number was 4% to 10%. Part of this is judges are not following the guidelines, not understanding the rules, and not having a clear understanding of character, temperament and genetics. All dogs, no matter what the breed, no matter of breed versus show, must be evaluated the same."

So, 99 today ain't the same 99 it was some years ago because mostly of what they said in that meeting. Judges are less knowledgeable, others are ignoring what matters and the rest don't understand the rules.
Can't be certain about the BSP but my WinSis program shows 1949 as the earliest but there are no participants listed. In 1950 it was held in Neumuenster/Holstein and the winner was Carlo von Bindersee with a score of 94 84 94=271. There were three judges , one for each phase. I believe Max VS died in 1936.

As for breeding, I think that is correct and that has also shifted over the years to where now many are breeding to the high scoring dogs in an attempt to produce dogs for the sport.


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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 03:55 PM
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Forgot to add, the first SchH trial was held in 1901 according to online sources like Wikipedia and I have read that somewhere else but can't recall where at the moment.


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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 05:25 PM
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When you cut the semantics, the breed was made to be a working dog and not a sport dog or show dog. People who breed with those two things as primary motivation are leading,(and have led), the breed right into the mediocrity of today. Its been the principle I have lived under and continue to live under. FWIW
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