help with fuss/find left leg? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-14-2010, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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help with fuss/find left leg?

I have started teaching fuss with the flip finish to my 8 mo (this is my first time training it), and I've been luring her with food while placing my left leg back a step, luring her around, then walking forward a couple of steps to get her straight. About 50% of the time she will come by my leg nice and straight, the other 50% she's more turned towards me with her butt out and crooked and I have to move over beside her to make it the correct position before I mark & reward.
Thought about using Ivan Balabanov method of basically putting her into position with her collar so that I can control her better. One of the problems is that I train OB using Michael Ellis methods so as I'm running around and getting her straight in front of me to get ready to lure her to the left, as soon as I stop, she stops and does an automatic sit, probably because she knows that command best. But I think this screws up the forward motion and can make it hard on me to lure her correctly.
Can someone help me to figure out what to try from here? I don't think I'm just totally doing it wrong altogether since I've watched several youtube videos on the subject (some of them from people here) but obviously either I have some part of the exercise wrong or there is a better/easier way to train it (at least for my pup). I really want to get the focused heeling by ME video, but I got my first speeding ticket that ended up being really expensive. So I have to wait until the semester is over in a few weeks, and I start working.
Suggestions? What has worked best for you?
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 09:28 PM
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Keep in mind this is completely novice advice, so take it for what it is worth. So far our work on the finish is going well and I think that is because Bison knew basic position very well before we even started heeling or the finish.

You mentioned that she knows sit the best so she sat the end of the lure. I would suggest working over and over and over just getting her a good basic position until that is muscle memory. That way, when she does the flip it would be natural to land in basic, not slightly turned.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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I see what you are saying and it makes sense. So did you just do the muscle memory heeling type exercises where you work them against a wall (to keep them straight)? and have your dog come into position that way to just teach her to sit straight at your side? We haven't done a lot of this yet because we didn't have a very good long straight barrier to work against until I just realized tonight that my hallway will work well
Thanks for replying!
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 07:48 AM
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Just a thought but where are you rewarding from? If you're rewarding from your right hand or towards the middle of your body there's going to be a tendency to **** out and face you in anticipation of the reward. I try to make sure I reward straight usually at about my left hip, or if I have a dog that's already cocked out I'll reward from the left side of the dog's muzzle. I'll keep the food and push on the left side of the muzzle and they'll usually turn their butt in, then I let go of the food.

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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 08:33 AM
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Are you training the finish against a wall? If you are going to use Ellis's method, you will need a wall. Also the dog needs to know leash pressure already (yield to the leash). What he does is stand next to the wall, with just enough gap between you and the wall for the dog to go through, have the dog in front of you and then pull the dog through the gap with the leash.

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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKlatsky View Post
Just a thought but where are you rewarding from? If you're rewarding from your right hand or towards the middle of your body there's going to be a tendency to **** out and face you in anticipation of the reward. I try to make sure I reward straight usually at about my left hip, or if I have a dog that's already cocked out I'll reward from the left side of the dog's muzzle. I'll keep the food and push on the left side of the muzzle and they'll usually turn their butt in, then I let go of the food.
I lure and reward with my left hand straight out in front/over her head. I'm not sure what you mean by pushing on the dog's left side of muzzle to get them to turn butt in......if you push on their left side, I see that making my dog's head turn in even more towards me and her butt turn out even more. Sorry I don't get it, you'll have to explain more.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Are you training the finish against a wall?
No, that's kind of what I was talking about in my second post, possibly trying to do that. The problem I see, though, is how will you get a dog into a flip finish while ending up close enough against a wall to force them to be straight......do I make sense? It seems like after I lure her around to facing forward, I will also have to make a step over the left to get her close enough to the wall to make a difference. Her butt isn't turned that far out from me...a few inches maybe, but enough that I don't want to reward in that position and make it a habit.


edit: I know what you are talking about with ME, I think I saw it somewhere once in a video clip from the leerburg newsletters. Is this how you trained it? Do you have a video of yourself or anyone else doing it this way?

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 08:56 AM
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It's sort of tricky to explain in words. But if you feed from the left side (outside) of the muzzle, the head will turn away from you and into the hand and the butt will turn in. I see a lot of people do this with left turns in place as well.

This is my dog with Claudia Romard a couple years ago at a seminar. He really wanted to turn his butt out. You can see initially she has to go very wide with her reward hand to get him to turn his butt in, but then he gets it. But you can see that her hand is always to the outside of the muzzle with him. This can be used as a tool to get the sits straighter in the fuss position.






And yes you can always build muscle memory against a fence or a wall for straight sits. Personally, now that I've learned more, I won't teach a finish until my dog is doing well in a straight line and sitting straight at a halt. Everyone has their own method though. Other people I know teach the basic first, then the finish, and only after the dog understands the position will they take a step to starting the actual heeling. I feel sometimes like I work backwards.

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Cade vom Eisernen Loewen IPO1, CGC 3-25-09
D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen BH 2-2-10
G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02 (Retired)


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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 09:10 AM
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I always liked this article on how to do the flip. This is the way that DH taught his dog.
http://www.schutzhund-training.net/o...ip-finish.html

Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen IPO3, CGC, TC 1-3-08
Cade vom Eisernen Loewen IPO1, CGC 3-25-09
D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen BH 2-2-10
G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02 (Retired)


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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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That is a lot of help.........thank you! nice pics too

I think I thought you meant you were actually "pushing" into the dog's left side of muzzle.
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