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post #1 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-24-2010, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Schutzhund drives discussion

I have been reading about drives and of course like every other dog topic there are conflicting resources. Some say there are hundreds of different drives others mention a few. Last night, I read something about pack drive and of course was trying to apply that to Schutzhund, but then thought maybe there isn’t an application or maybe it doesn’t even exist. So, I am curious what everyone’s opinions are on this subject.

• Which school of thought are you? Hundreds of drives or few?
• Which drives are used in Schutzhund?
• When/how is each drive used in Schutzhund? (Yep, I know this would take for ever to explain. I am just looking for high level summary)

Amy
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post #2 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-24-2010, 11:43 PM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

I don't think pack drive is as highly prized as it used to be. Food, toys, electric, (especially with the Malinois people), have all become the main means of motivation vs praise from the handler. I think most people have not really experienced a dog where the handler is the attraction while others are too busy trying to use the new popular methods to even notice if their dog has this.

I try not to get caught up in all the many definitions of drives, that is only useful to a point. I know way too many people who can resite every word of that stuff but watching them train is downright painful.


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post #3 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 07:20 AM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

Ive really never dwelled too much about the different drives or searched too hard for any facts regarding them, because I know there are so many opinions...however I have my notions. I think the problem is how people interpret different behaviours as being the result of a specific drive.
In regards to SchH I think the main drives which can be used are food, prey, fight, defense, most certainly pack drive! As far as when and how they are used in SchH depend entirely on the dog.
Maybe not every dog uses all of these drives, maybe they do! Im sure some would say there are more drives then this, and who knows who is right or wrong.

Pack drive IMO can be used in all phases and paints a true picture of teamwork!

I certainly fell suspect of not being aware of pack drive with my girl, until someone told me to get rid of the toy in obedience, and to stop rewarding so much, that she is highly attractable just for working with me. The longer I do obedience with my girl the more in drive she gets, and a simple smile or good girl will get her higher in drive. I often don't reward her with a toy until after an entire ob session, in less I'm working on something which warrants it more often.

In protection, so many times I see dogs who will bump/bite/look around during the B&H when the handler approaches. Perhaps because the handler creates some sort of conflict in training there, or lack of pack drive? I don't really know, but I know in ALL phases it's important to communicate to the dog when they are doing good. I often see people who don't praise or reassure their dogs enough, or the praise has no meaning, before you can communicate effectively with praise your dog has to understand what praise is, praise needs to be taught to be meaningful. Just as you need to teach your dog what wrong means! Black/White

For tracking I've heard people say to be quiet and let your dog work.. maybe Im wrong but I certainly tell my dog when she is doing good, or if she's not!

These are just my thoughts, with no founded proof, just what Ive gathered, and Ive not been doing this all that long, so I could be way off base.
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post #4 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 10:17 AM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

Quote:
Quote: These are just my thoughts, with no founded proof, just what Ive gathered, and Ive not been doing this all that long, so I could be way off base.

What you said is "proof" enough. How can you be off base when you see the results with your own eyes? More people should try that where they do what works vs what some video or what someone tells them to is the "right way" when it feels all wrong.

The problems in the H&B can be the result of a number of things but it certainly can be related to the fact that people seem afraid to praise their dog there or their praise doesn't really sound like praise. Mostly they are correcting their dog over and over, both verbally and physically ... usually harder or more often than necessary. They are too busy trying to make the dog a little nutty with too much stimulation from the helper or there is the opposite problem of not enough drive and the dog being asked to do a H&B when he is not ready . Less attraction to the helper can mean more attraction to the handler and if the handler has two left feet, well.....the dog will look back to see if they need any help. The dog has to trust the handler and often, the handler has damaged that trust by doing what I said above.

I tell people to be quiet in tracking because they are constantly nagging the dog with sharp words and again, damaging that trust. The praise just has to be at the right level and at the right place in tracking but it certainly is appropriate to praise there.

The dog has to feel like the handler wants them to do these things but so many handlers only seem to know the word NO....or my least favorite word "phooey". Seems once a person learns that word they just can't seem to stop saying it. Try watching at a club and count the number of no's, phooeys and corrections vs the number of times you hear praise. Many clubs are way out of balance in that regard.


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post #5 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 12:40 PM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

I guess that was just my disclaimer Often it's hard for me to find the right words for explaining how I see things, I'd be a horrible teacher.

I had to laugh about "phooey", very true. It seems folks have no qualms about yelling at their dogs, and sometimes if they decide to praise their dogs, it sounds the same as the yelling only different words, yelling "good dog" meant as praise is useless and most likely more damaging!

I'm rather soft spoken, and have had more than one person tell me that I need to have a stronger voice about giving commands. While there may be some validity in that , I always shrug it off because Ive yet to see a need for it. I don't see the point in yelling commands when speaking them works fine. Especially when my dog has probably never even heard me yelling before.

To Ruthie, I know people always say, to get out there and see dogs in training, at trials, watch, listen, etc.

The truth is, that really is the best way to learn, someone (not me) could probably explain the different drives and where and how and when they are generally expressed but SEEING these things for yourself is really the best way to learn anything. I have learned way more by just watching dogs in training and asking questions about things I notice then all the books, websites, videos, I've read or watched. And by doing this, I think you will find, the "terms" are actually not so important... you will begin to be able to read the dog itself and SEE when they are switching drives, and what made them do so.
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post #6 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 12:49 PM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted By: KHudakpraise needs to be taught to be meaningful. Just as you need to teach your dog what wrong means! Black/White
How would you go about teaching this? To teach to dog to get deep satisfaction from praise alone?
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post #7 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

By pairing it with good things! ( Good things vary from dog to dog.. food, petting, TOYS!)

However, if a dog is lacking in pack drive it might not be as easy to acheive this, maybe it would just take longer? Not sure, as it was quite natural with my girl dog, BUT with my boy dog that is a whole different story.
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post #8 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

Anne and Kristi, I understand what you are saying. The application is what is important. I am just not a "learn by do" person.

I am a corporate trainer by profession and do a lot of work with learning styles. Some people can learn just by watching other people, some can learn just by trying it out themselves... I need to talk about it, understand the theory behind it THEN do it.

That is why I ask so many theory and termanology questions here. I want to understand the concepts behind what is happening so that when I see it on the field then I can make the connections or when working with my own dog I can trouble shoot rather than just blindly following training methods.
I know this is probably really annoying to my club members because I don't really "get" what they are telling me till I go home and research it.

When I read things, I always try to apply to what I see my dog doing or what I have seen other dogs doing. Just so you know, my philosophy is that it is great to learn from others with more experience but the bottom line for me is that training is about MY DOG...period. If I try a method and it doesn't work for him, or does anything to damage the bond between us it is out the door. That is why it is so important for me to understand the why behind it so I can tweek methods and theory to work for us.

So... do you see pack drive as the dogs desire to work with and please the handler?

Amy
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post #9 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

[quote=Vandal]
Quote:
Quote:
...The dog has to feel like the handler wants them to do these things but so many handlers only seem to know the word NO....or my least favorite word "phooey". Seems once a person learns that word they just can't seem to stop saying it. Try watching at a club and count the number of no's, phooeys and corrections vs the number of times you hear praise. Many clubs are way out of balance in that regard.

That is a great challenge. I think I will try that for myself this week. I think in tracking it is overwhelmingly positive, but probably not for obedience.

Amy
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Grizzly vom Buchonia
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post #10 of 89 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 03:41 PM
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Re: Schutzhund drives discussion

Quote:
Quote:So... do you see pack drive as the dogs desire to work with and please the handler?
Yes and it is absolutely genetic.


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