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post #1 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
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Full Bite?

Here is one that I know at least one person will answer.
Do you think there should be so much emphasis on a full bite in SchH Protection? If you do, please explain why. Meaning, what does the full bite mean to you? If you don't think it is necessary or given too much weight in the score etc, please state why you feel this way.


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post #2 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 10:52 PM
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Re: Full Bite?

Ah Anne, it is noce to see a post about dogs. My uneducated person will sit back and read.

Val


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post #3 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 11:32 AM
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Re: Full Bite?

Anne, Good question. I think that there is Too much emphasis placed on the full bite in today's judging. Having said that I do think that a full bite is both desirable and necessary. However, I think that more focus is placed on the bite by the judge than the engagement by the dog. I see dogs that have fullbites that skip along, merely going along for the ride. I see dogs with no power and assertiveness in the engagement. But, if the bite is full then they are rewarded to the highest levels. I see strong dogs that may readjust there bite a fraction while trying to dominate, get penalized while the dog who finds comfort in the sleeve gets rewarded. To me this is setting the table for breeders to breed for the prey monsters and thus an imbalance. JMO
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post #4 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 11:58 AM
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Re: Full Bite?

Clifton I think you are absolutely correct. I hope with the article Lance had in the Nov/Dec issue of the UScA magazine things will change back to the more original way of judging a dog.

Rick
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post #5 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Full Bite?

Not long ago, someone sent me a video of a SchH 3 dog doing protection in a trial. The dog had been heavily penalized by the judge for what was called "pulsing" on the sleeve. As I watched the video, each time the dog was hit with the stick he countered by trying to torque the sleeve. This was a smaller Mal and so he was not able to fully counter but the grip did not slip. Every time the dog did this the judge wrote on his pad. The dog was penalized for fighting back which to me said a great deal about the ignornace of that judge.


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post #6 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 12:34 PM
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Re: Full Bite?

^^ I've seen the same sort of thing in trials.

Too often, the dog who grips full, but doesn't *bite*, just goes along for the ride, and shows now power, fight or commitement in his work, but hangs on, is praised over the dog who's bite is maybe not completely full, but he is *biting* not griping, and who shows power and commitment throughout, doesn't just go along for the ride and take the helper's stick hits but instead responds to that pressure and threat by fighting back against the helper. That's not the way it should be.

So yes, I do feel too much emphasis is put on fullness and calmness of the bite alone, without looking at the overall dog and why he is biting the way he bites. Certainly dogs who bite frontal and have chewy bites should be penalized, as those things stem from insecurity. But at the same time, that insecurity will be evident elsewhere in the dog's work not only in the bite.

But it seems too many judges are looking at specific minutia, like the grip, and judging the whole performance based on that, rather than looking at the dog himself and the overall picture the dog presents. Though I suppose it's much easier to just glance and see a bit of daylight at the back of the mouth, points off, or see the muzzle of the dog move a bit, points off, than it is to read the dog to understand why he is doing what he is doing.


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post #7 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 01:17 PM
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Re: Full Bite?

Interesting discussion. For someone who lacks the knowledge and experience to opine but is keen on learning as much as possible, could someone explain why a full bite is desirable and necessary. I always hear so much emphasis placed on the importance of a "genetically full grip" in schutzhund. I have read discussions where a full grip is viewed as being indicative of good nerve and that if a dog does not have full grips it is lacking in confidence or nerve. Is this true in all circumstances?

An interesting counterpoint came up in a recent discussion on another board. The discussion involved the differences between "sport dogs" and "police dogs." It seemed that the general consensus was that most police dogs could do schutzhund but that a large portion of schutzhund dogs could not do police work. Obviously there were disagreements and, like many dog related subjects, I have no basis to opine. However, a canine officer weighed in and noted that some of the dogs that become police K9s had been washed out of schutzhund because they did not have full grips. The officer stated something to the effect that a full grip was not of utmost importance for a police K9 and that sometimes shallower bites cause more damage. If full grips are not necessary in real world police service, why is so much emphasis placed on full grips in schutzhund? Thanks for your time and patience.
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post #8 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 01:39 PM
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Re: Full Bite?

SchH is about the only dog sport that i can think of right now that judges the bite so precisely. yes, there are others that judge the fullness and grip of the bite but dont deduct points for thrashing or "pulsing" as mentioned before. i like a nice full deep bite but since i do not participate in SchH or SchH trials its not a concern for me. i dont like dogs who "typewrite" or transfer. i like a dog that is commited to the bite no matter what the target. since im not into the SchH sport scene i cant give a hard opinion on it but from what i've seen and have learned i think they should focus more on the dog's commitment and stability rather than the strict fundamental's. rather than penalizeing a dog for thrashing, penalize the dog for lack of commitment while still focusing on a nice full bite.

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post #9 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 02:05 PM
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Re: Full Bite?

A full calm grip comes from the foundation of our breed. Shallow grips and thrashing would do a lot of damage to the sheep and are not always as effective in controlling the animal. The grip should be full, calm, and hard and used to dominate and over power the sheep (helper). A shallow grip that lacks calmness is as faulty as a dog that has a full calm grip, but lacks power and doesn't try to dominate its opponent. It is unfortunate that many of our judges are incapable of evaluating power and fight or a dog that is actually trying to dominate and control the helper.

Lisa Clark

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post #10 of 99 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Full Bite?

I agree with Lisa. The best dogs I have ever worked were exactly what she described. The dogs should fight with their body, I am not really talking about thrashing the sleeve, I am talking about a dog trying to dominate and over-power the helper by countering the threat and attack from the helper. I suppose that some dogs actually really are "pulsing" although I find that word to be ridiculous in the context of SchH.
I do not see many of these types of dogs, ( like what Lisa is talking about), much anymore although I know they are out there. The other side of this is the training but that's not the topic at the moment. I think, like Lisa, that what the dog does on the sleeve is the biggest indicator of his genetics.


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