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Vandal 12-10-2009 02:41 PM

A couple of weeks ago, I had a conversation with a USA Judge about guarding and what he said, the judges are now going to be looking for. I hope I understood him correctly only because I don't want to quote anyone incorrectly. That is my personal pet peeve. Anyway, what I understood him to be saying is that judges will now, ( even though some have been looking for it all along), be looking for more intense barking in the blind and also after the outs. He basically said that even if your dog does everything else right, (like biting well, being clean, outting quickly etc), but the guarding part is lacking, it is possible for you to walk off the field with only 80 points.

So, for the sake of conversation...... What is your opinion of what I am claiming this judge said? Do you believe that so much emphasis should be placed on this aspect of protection? What are the negatives or positives in your opinion?

JKlatsky 12-10-2009 02:49 PM

Re: Guarding
I have heard this as well, and the trial I watched last weekend where Gottfried Dildei judged I would say that there was an emphasis on guarding behavior in the critiques.

I am interested in what it will mean for those dogs that are taught to silent guard after the out.

lhczth 12-10-2009 02:59 PM

Re: Guarding
IMO we need to look at the whole picture and not just one aspect. I think a dog that is correct overall but is lacking power in the guarding should not receive a 'V' score, but they should not be receiving just a passing score. Judging totally on points and ignoring the dogs is easier, I guess, but does a huge injustice to the breed.

lhczth 12-10-2009 03:02 PM

Re: Guarding
I HATE the silent guard, but I have seen a few where the dog is VERY intense. This I would not fault if I were a judge.

Zahnburg 12-10-2009 04:14 PM

Re: Guarding
Schutzhund protection is comprised of three things: Guarding, gripping, and obedience. Guarding is just as important as gripping, and, I think, has been somewhat overlooked in trials. The guarding really is the part that allows the dog to show aggression. What I like to see is a dog who can guard with a lot of aggression and fight then have a full, hard and calm grip. To me this demonstrates balance in the dog and in the training.

Also, I am a big fan of the silent guard, but it must be a GUARD and NOT just a silent sit.

lhczth 12-10-2009 04:41 PM

Re: Guarding

Zahnburg 12-10-2009 05:07 PM

Re: Guarding
Sorry Lisa, you are correct I did not really answer her question.

I do think that it is important to look at the whole picture and not just any one aspect. Having said that I do not think that enough attention has been paid to the guarding, the focus has been largely on grips. I think that they need to be viewed together to make the score. It is not so hard to make good grips and adequate guarding, likewise it is not hard to make powerful guarding and so-so grips. I think it is important for a dog to be balanced and thus able to make powerful guarding AND good grips.
I don't know about walking away with 80 points but I think that a dog who is correct, has good grips and poor guarding should be viewed the same as a dog who is correct, has very powerful guards but poor grips. I do not think that the judge should show favor to grips over guarding.
I am not sure that I am expressing this clearly. Let me know if it does not make sence, and I can try to explain better what I mean.

lhczth 12-10-2009 05:34 PM

Re: Guarding
No, I believe you are saying what I am. We need to look at the whole performance and not just one aspect of the performance.

Wildtim 12-10-2009 11:08 PM

Re: Guarding
My personal opinion is that guarding should be that important, that a dog can only barely get good if he guards weakly, is correct.

However, I can see where they are going to have a whole lot of trouble making that effective when the rules clearly state that the silent guard is to be treated equally with the active guard after all the outs as far as the points go.

Plus the next two judges that can agree on what intense is will be the first. Some favor a fast barking whatever drive it represents, some will take a slow strong bark, some feel that jumping is not as intense no matter the character of the dog. Trying to get any consistency here is just going to be another nightmare. I'm getting a little tired of hoping my dog is trained to show what this particular judge is looking for in order to get a better than passing score.

ramgsd 12-11-2009 01:10 PM

Re: Guarding
To answer the question, yes I feel this is a very important aspect that needs to be evaluated as strongly as any other. I was just at a trial last weekend and the SV judge Walter Reinhold made it very clear that strong guarding was what he wanted to see. This combined with Lance's article in the latest USA magazine and the comments and scoring at the Worlds is letting people know that things have become out of wack in the dogs. The dogs need to be more balanced in prey and aggression. My hope is that they go back more to the old style of judging the dogs. The less powerfull, less aggressive dog that has full grips and is correct can not V in protection.

The silent guard has been mentioned. I believe that most judges can see the difference in a strong silent gaurding dog and a sit and wait dog.

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