Is Fighting Drive Necessary ? - Page 7 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #61 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-04-2009, 10:19 PM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

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Originally Posted By: Tim Wild
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Originally Posted By: lcht2

KNPV is designed to produce police and other service dogs.
In other words the designers set it up so that if 50 dogs trial and 20 pass the police might find the 5 that they think have real potential.
isnt that what i just said just in different words?

steve

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post #62 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-04-2009, 10:37 PM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

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Originally Posted By: R. MattoxIcht2 states: "can i ask you what kind of experience you have with dogs? have you ever trained a dog in a sport or a type of service? are you baseing your knowledge on what you have read or experience?"

I notice that you didn't say anything was wrong with what I posted nor about the video. That's because there was nothing too find fault with. Neither if it's from

As for my experience no it's not theoretical, I do train. I praticipate in the sport of schutzhund. Ring and KNPV clubs aren't very prevalent in this area. I don't just train just "the routine". We use the suit, helper fights with the dog on the ground. I send my dogs into the woods after the helper.... I'm not into training the "jute junky." Although the video of Bernard wasn't at our club, it could be one of our training days. We try to train the complete dog. The saying that a few of us like to use is "We train protection dogs that can do Schutzhund!"

I've seen all prey KNPV dogs that are just going with the "game". I wouldn't put my life on the line to have it protect me. I've also seen others that would flat out hurt a guy. Same with Sch. dogs. I agree that Sch. has swung to a more prey style of training that I don't care for personally. I think that may be about to change after the Worlds this year. As well as the scoring and comments from the judge at the USA Nationals.

Bottom line is; No one should look to any sport to test and proof their dog. The training should do that and then you can get your titles and try and tweek your training to get those extra control and polish points.


me asking you those questions was me trying to figure out where you got your info..yea, i watched the video you posted and there's really nothing fancy, just looks like a nice dog doing what any SchH dog is trained to do, the same . prey is easy for a dog to work in, so yes, it is more common in the sport world, it can work on the streets but if your looking for the real deal, the dog needs the fight.

steve

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tyson v. newbury- PSA PDC

"h*ll on wheels"
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post #63 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-07-2009, 02:41 PM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

"The dog needs the fight." REALLY??? Probably on of the most obvious statements I've heard recently. Prey works in the street until the bad guy starts fighting back.

I haven't seen too many prey monsters that would stay on the guy with water in the nose.

But I guess you are going too know more than Bernard about street dogs. You know Bernard's never accomplished anything. OH wait!!!!! He has.
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post #64 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-07-2009, 08:15 PM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

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Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.
couldnt you also put that in the same category with and very prey oriented dog that is equipment fixated?

steve

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post #65 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 05:07 AM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: lcht2
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.
couldnt you also put that in the same category with and very prey oriented dog that is equipment fixated?
I noticed a lot of dogs at my schH club go insane when they see the sleeve, it's like they can't think and they literally drag there owners to the field while barking insanely.
Isa never barks or goes insane when she sees the sleeve, actually she doesn't even bark for the sleeve when she bites it. Never has. But she will stare into their eyes.
So is the going crazy from just seeing the sleeve bad nerves then? Or a dog that has too much prey drive??

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post #66 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 10:40 AM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
Quote:
Originally Posted By: lcht2
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.
couldnt you also put that in the same category with and very prey oriented dog that is equipment fixated?
I noticed a lot of dogs at my schH club go insane when they see the sleeve, it's like they can't think and they literally drag there owners to the field while barking insanely.
Isa never barks or goes insane when she sees the sleeve, actually she doesn't even bark for the sleeve when she bites it. Never has. But she will stare into their eyes.
So is the going crazy from just seeing the sleeve bad nerves then? Or a dog that has too much prey drive??
Missy, Judge goes nuts when we get to the field. I mean NUTS. We play ball before anyone else shows up, do some OB and then I put him back to wait his turn. Then we pull him back out for bitework. He starts pulling, jumping around, barking, barking and then if he sees a sleeve on the ground he'll grab it if I let him close enough.

However, he is not equipment fixated, he will drop the sleeve and bark at the decoy. He loves to work and I guess he shows it by being a butt like he is.

Also, he is the most confident, rock-solid GSD I've ever met(I'm biast) BUT he is a VERY confident, solid dog, handles any situation with a great attitude and loves people etc.

I've seen dogs like you described Isa to be and I attribute it to a TON of OB before bitework was started as my little APBT was like that for a long time until she really came alive.

JMO
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post #67 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 11:19 AM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

Total beginner compared to some on this board, but this is what I have come to understand regarding the insanity when it's time for protection.

Generally, I've seen dogs taught that they start the work. They are not reacting to the helper, but pushing the helper into reacting. So a young dog that is taught that he gets to start the work, when he is brought onto the field with the context of the sleeve, helper, etc. will start barking and lunging because this behavior is what has been trained, asked for, and rewarded previously. We reward their enthusiasm.

As the dog gets older and a firm enthusiasm has been established for the work, then you ask them to contain it. Waiting until asked to let all of that go. I think I've heard it likened to a shaken soda bottle...you want all that energy taken and channeled into intensity and not into barking or action until a command is given so that they explode into that action. This is usually where you start to see "leaking". Previously they've been worked and allowed to go nuts, so asking them to sit and be quiet can be very difficult for them to achieve, not necessarily because of the dog but because of how you've trained it.

Now, I would guess (certainly wouldn't stake my life on it, because I'm definitely still learning and misinterpreting what I'm seeing or relying on others to explain) that this type of training utilizes more prey drive since you're working with younger dogs and more of a game type mentality. But that too much prey training in an already high prey drive dog can create spazzy behavior. I think again it has to do with balance. I wouldn't think you would take a dog that is more defensive and just work it in defense all the time. You'd do more prey to lighten him up. I think it works the other way too. A dog that's more prey, needs to add a little seriousness.

Just to add, this is a great thread.

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post #68 of 68 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 04:09 PM
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Re: Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?

Quote:
Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
Quote:
Originally Posted By: lcht2
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.
couldnt you also put that in the same category with and very prey oriented dog that is equipment fixated?

So is the going crazy from just seeing the sleeve bad nerves then? Or a dog that has too much prey drive??
well it would depend, is the dog barking because he knows he going to get the "crap" beat out of him or is the dog barking because he LOVES the work?also is the dog responsive to the handler? or is the dog absolutely(sp) uncontrolable? thats the question i feel would be the best.

what i mean about getting the crap beat out of him/her is, was the dog pushed into defense to get to bite? i recall a mali that visited our club not too long ago that was pushed so hard that she would literally want to kill you. this dog was later put down because the dog would run off from there property and was a huge risk. now back to the sleeve...(in lamens terms) once she saw the sleeve she knew it was time to fight, she was tought to fight for her life because the previous trainer used her in the "box" or table to get her to bite and she had no choice. yes, that would be the wrong way to use table training.

steve

"ok, go get your crack head"
tyson v. newbury- PSA PDC

"h*ll on wheels"
lucia v. logan haus - ruler of the world


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