Teaching the "out". - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 07:22 AM Thread Starter
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Teaching the "out".

Would love to get some views and opinions on this. There are so many conflicting theories as to how to teach a reliable out, and at what age to start. Depending on which seminar giver you talk to, I've heard everything from "bonging them on the nose while they are still puppies" (from an world level competitor/trainer), to flanking, to various play techniques.

Disagreement between making sure that a reliable out is the FIRST thing they learn from an early age so it becomes second nature (no conflict), to not expecting or wanting an out until they are older and you have a solid trust relationship with your dog (so no conflict) - both techniques imply that doing the out too early or waiting too long WILL cause conflict and issues.

So many different philosophies on when and how to train the out. Just so confusing!

What is your philosophy, and why?

Lucia


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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 07:59 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I do a little 2 ball but since I don't want them spitting everything out as soon as they get to me, I pick them up by the collar and give the command when they spit the toy out. I like this way because it *hopefully* gives a nice spit out the object rather than a chewy out.

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 08:54 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I'm sure it depends on the pups personality, I taught the out early (with toys, not with the sleeve) because I know my pups mother can be possessive of her toys. I've had no problems with her spitting toys out, or being hesitant to re bite, or outing before I tell her to, but she has tons of toy drive.

Basically, I would play some tug, and let her win a few times, then I would stop playing and moving the toy, but hold on to the toy really tight so that she couldn't continue to play on her own and tell her to out. EVENTUALLY (talking minutes) she let go, and we started playing again right away. It WAS chewy at first, but once she realized that outing only meant a pause in playing it got a lot better.
Repeat, Repeat, Repeat. They will learn that to continue playing they have to out. Just dont out them every time.

I was hesitant to teach it too early because I didn't want to create conflict or lack of confidence, but there have been no problems.
She used to take off with the toy when she did win it, so for a while, she just didnt win at all! But lately Ive been letting her win and she brings it back for more because she knows playing tug with me is funner than playing by herself.

ETA: more food for thought

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...476#Post973476

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...e=8#Post971104
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:03 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I was thinking the wrong thing. In Rockys case "out" means leave the room - and "drop it" is used for anything he has in his mouth. Not sure which one you are trying to teach.

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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:15 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I am working Jethro the same way that Kristi is NOW. It was one of the pointers I got the last time we went to training. He is VERY quickly learning that it is WAY more fun to out and reengage in a fun game than to just carry the toy around himself. I have been letting him win it the last time.... he carries it in and takes it under the futon. I walk back to his crate and toss some treats in there and he comes running leaving the tug under the futon. This way I am not taking the toy from him but I still get it in the end.

He also is not outing on the sleeve. Just tugs and toys. We have been doing this for about 2 weeks now and I am varying the time he has to wait (talking seconds) before release word and reengage. Been sneaking in a couple wait for eye contact then reengage too. If not he would stare a hole in the toy waiting for it to move.

BTW this is as much for using a toy in OB (now) as the sleeve in protection (later).


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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Teaching the "out".

Danielle, I'm asking about the out command as it pertains to Schutzhund.

Specifically asking about different philosophies on when (what age) to start teaching and expecting an out.

There are conflicting thoughts on this out there: I'm not so much looking for specific techniques as I am looking for input on training philosophies and potential drawbacks or advantages to imprinting an out very early (with the believed drawback that it will cause lack of confidence in the grip), to waiting until the dog is older, has a rock-solid grip and sense of control over the tug/sleeve (with the believed drawback that the dog will not be reliable in outing on command, having a sense of "entitlement" to the tug/sleeve).

Thanks Dianna! Haven't done anything with Gryff yet, just letting him settle in and have fun. I saw how you did that with Gryff in the little video that Chris sent - right now, when I play two ball with Gryff he sometimes spits out the first ball, sometimes does not, and sometimes spits it out, waits for me to throw the second ball, then quickly picks up the first ball and THEN starts chasing down the second ball! That is exactly what Falkor used to do - so funny, definately a genetic behaviour of wanting to have possesion of the ball!

Would love to hear people's philosophies/experiences in early vs. later, conflict/no conflict training, thoughts and outcomes on the "out".

Lucia


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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:31 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I am just speculating - but I would think it depends on the dog. If the dog is already hardwire to be possessive, then you need to start training the concept of out early to avoid conflict.

On the other hand, if the dog lacks that innate possessiveness, wouldn't a little conflict (if you don't hold on it, I'm going to steal it from you!) be just the kick in the pants he needs (Flinks?)?
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 11:45 AM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I've been wondering about this too, as I haven't settled on any one way to teach the out.

The people I used to train with taught out to the younger dogs with a trade - food or another tug for the tug. As they got older, they would flank the dogs that didn't out immediately.

I've been doing the trade game or holding the tug still until he outs, and reengaging him once he outs. This has been moderately successful thus far, but with the trade game, the dog will sometimes out before he's given the command if he sees the trade tug. Holding the toy still works unless it's a stick of wood...for some reason he absolutely will not out a stick of wood. I have not tried flanking because I'm not sure if this is an appropriate method of teaching the out - I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from more experienced people.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:41 PM
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Re: Teaching the "out".

I would trade for food around the house at first, but like Dianna we pretty much just picked them up until they spit the object and said the word when they dropped the item. To avoid spitting their toys (which a problem we ran into with too much early out training and 2 ball) we would also start marking a "hold" early on.

When they were older and good about hanging onto their toys, we also used it in a game with their toys. We would pull them in or correct them forward with their leash and collar so they couldn't back up and tug and lock up with the toy then Out. As soon as they would out we would "Packen" and restart the tug game.

When they were older still we cleaned up the out off the helper with prong and electric.

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