Protection - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 452
Protection

What is the general consensus here...will a SchH trained dog bite a person if they don't have the sleeve on. I am not talking on the field but in a situation where they feel threatened or the family is threatened.

We went to a SchH club this weekend and 2 of us had to stand on either side of the blind, close to the helper because he is getting a little distracted and forgetting to look behind each blind. Anyway, the dog did not once even look in our direction. Got me thinking...is a sport dog useless when it comes to PP?

I've heard stories of the police once buying a SchH dog but when told to go after the crook, the dog just ran along side him and didn't actually bite because there wasn't a arm.

Thoughts?
RavenSophi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SouthEastern WI
Posts: 14,168
Re: Protection

Alot will depend on the dog but for the most part - SchH dogs are trained to ONLY bite the sleeve.

That doesn't mean they can't be trained for personal protection.
Lauri & The Gang is offline  
post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 01:14 PM
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,602
Re: Protection

Depends on the dog and the training.

A dog with SchH training alone isn't going to necessarily bite for real, no. It may, or may not, but if it does it's due more to the dog's inherent temperament rather than it's training.

SchH and like sports are designed in order to test if the dog has the correct traits to be trained as a protection or police dog. But they are NOT designed to provide that training. To do K9 or PPD work, additional training would be required. However, if the dog's SchH foundation is solid and it has the correct temperament for this sort of work, it wouldn't take much in the way of additional training to get the dog to do K9 or PPD.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: RavenSophi

We went to a SchH club this weekend and 2 of us had to stand on either side of the blind, close to the helper because he is getting a little distracted and forgetting to look behind each blind. Anyway, the dog did not once even look in our direction. Got me thinking...is a sport dog useless when it comes to PP?
Yes, it is "usless" in terms of creating a PPD. It can be very useFULL for identifying a dog suitable for such work, and laying a correct training foundation to be built upon. But additional would be needed to make it a PPD.

Also, the scenario you are describing means absolutely nothing with regard to assessing a dog's suitability to be a PPD.

First, there was a person wearing equipment, so that person alone is going to be the dog's target. Such is how the dog is taught. Just because a dog will bite the guy wearing the sleeve when there is a guy wearing a sleeve does not mean that he will not bite someone else not wearing a sleeve. Big difference there.

Second, you just standing around presents absolutely no reason for the dog to consider you any sort of threat or challenge. A dog who would target someone just standing there, helper nearby or not, is a scary, unstable dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: RavenSophi
I've heard stories of the police once buying a SchH dog but when told to go after the crook, the dog just ran along side him and didn't actually bite because there wasn't a arm.
Thoughts?
Well, if those police didn't do any additional training with the dog and just put a SchH trained dog on the street, they obviously don't know squat about protection training of any type and made a really stupid mistake that anyone who does know about protection training would have seen coming a mile away. Train the dog for the scenarios he's going to encounter on the street and train him it's ok to bite without equipment, and they'll get the results they want.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Chris Wild is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 01:15 PM
The Administrator from the Great White North, eh?
 
Castlemaid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern British Columbia
Posts: 16,991
Re: Protection

Most SchH dogs are very "sleeve-safe", in that they will only engage the helper, and only bite the sleeve. Dogs that will bite "for real" are refered to as being civil. They would not have asked you to stand there if there was any risk to you or the other people.

At our club, the helper sometimes comes off the field and will sit among the rest of us and the dog will come looking for him and do his hold and bark. We know the dogs, and we know it is okay. They know they have a job to do, and that job is to get the sleeve, so they don't pay much attention to anything else.

It takes a LOT to get a dog to engage a person for real, and to stay for the fight. I mean, look at it from the dog's point of view, wouldn't you hesitate to engage a person three or four times taller than you with long tentacle who can strike out at you without you even having to be close?

That is why even sport dogs are from the time they are puppies encouraged to bite and tug, and are never corrected for puppy nipping or biting or jumping on people - only redirected.

Police dog training and PPD training goes to a higher level, past SchH training. Not all SchH dogs would make it as a police dog, actually, few would, but a lot of police departments are not dog trainers, breeders, behaviourists, and don't understand the distinctions between a sport dog, and a real police dog. SchH can be a good foundation for a police dog, and SchH training will allow a trainer to be able to identify those dogs that would make good police dogs and thus go further with their training, but by itself, Schutzhund training does not a civil dog make.

Lucia


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2009-2018

Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD
Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? 2004-2015
Castlemaid is offline  
post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 01:27 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19,496
Re: Protection

I am very new to this but I think there are two different things that can happen: 1) a SchH dog in the context of SchH that WILL bite a helper without a sleeve or, 2) a dog that is trained in police work and/or personal protection. As for #1, yes I have seen such a dog. One dog at our club, very serious drivey dog. She bit the sleeve, helper slipped the sleeve for her to carry it, and before the handler had full control of the line the dog spit the sleeve and turned on the helper. Luckily the helper still had his stick in hand and held it horizontal so the dog bit on the stick instead of his arm or belly. For #2 I personally think police dog and PPD work is in a different category than SchH. Not that it's any more or less difficult, but the training is different and the purpose is different. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I do not expect my SchH dog to "protect" me and that is not my intention for doing SchH. He is less than a year old, still training all in prey drive. My neighbors called him "vicious" so to show them how he trains I tied him to the tree, tossed a tug toy just out of his reach, and when he was barking and lunging for it like a cazy dog I showed them how I can reach over the dog's head, stroke and pat his sides, and he is barking at the object, not at me. I know eventually that may change, but right now that is where he is at in training.

I've seen some PPDs that I don't think would even make great SchH dogs. I've seen some kind of shy away or back off when the decoy is yelling and waving his stick, then the dog goes in and kind of nips at the ankle or whatever. So on some level I think that sometimes SchH can put a lot of pressure on the dog and is a true test of courage, even if they bite the same sleeve every time. They get hit with a stick and driven, to me that's as telling as the bite.
Liesje is offline  
post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 452
Re: Protection

Thanks for all the answers. It makes sense to me that you will have to do extra training to get the dog to bite without the sleeve. Doesn't look like the police know what they're doing, but that wouldn't be a first.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...train him it's ok to bite without equipment, and they'll get the results they want.
How would you do that? Just interested because doesn't a dog even while doing PPD work learn with a sleeve? I can't imagine a dog transitioning from a sleeve to a fleshy arm.
RavenSophi is offline  
post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 01:56 PM
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,602
Re: Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted By: RavenSophi

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...train him it's ok to bite without equipment, and they'll get the results they want.
How would you do that? Just interested because doesn't a dog even while doing PPD work learn with a sleeve? I can't imagine a dog transitioning from a sleeve to a fleshy arm.
Yes, even with K9s and PPDs the majority of the work, especially the foundation work, is done with a sleeve.

Then when the dog is ready it moves from a sleeve to a bitesuit and then to a hidden sleeve worn under clothing. Muzzle work is often introduced later too.

Dogs are never taught to bite fleshy arms since there is simply absolutely no way to safely teach that to a dog. Whomever is doing the helperwork must be protected. But they are taught to bite what appears to be a person wearing regular clothing. And can be tested on a no equipment/clothing helper to gauge their willingness, but for safety would need to be restrained and not allowed to actually make contact. Once they get to that point, they tend to look at the overall human as a target and aren't going to be very discriminating about what they bite. And since most "bad guys" aren't running around buck naked, if the dog only grabs a clothed body part and avoids a bare one, it doesn't much matter.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Chris Wild is offline  
post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-17-2009, 07:03 PM
Master Member
 
VonKromeHaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: kennewick,WA
Posts: 630
Send a message via Yahoo to VonKromeHaus
Re: Protection

I have seen dogs that are very equipment driven. As someone else said "sleeve safe". My pit bull is this way, slip the sleeve and she wants nothing to do with the person anymore as he doesn't have the sleeve.

We have a dog in the club that is trained in PP as well as Schutzhund. He is having some blind issues right now and thus there are a few of us standing around the blind while he is being worked there. WE do not worry about him coming off the sleeve and at one of us as he is focused on his task at hand.

My personal dog is a great dog and I'm training him in PP as well as Schutzhund. We(Myself and the TD and decoys) are making sure that he doesn't become completely equipment fixated. BUT when on the field training for Schutzhund he is focused on the sleeve and nothing else!

Courtney

Tululajhs Red Chrome Kahpone~AST/APBT~CGC TT BH~RIP
Osyrius SilverChrome GTOVonMarionHaus~GSD~CGC DDJ RN
WBBs BleauChromeLady of TheCopa~APBT~STARR CGC
VonKromeHaus is offline  
post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 01:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 93
Re: Protection

Not many Sch clubs know how to train a serious dog these days. Many will say the dog is "TOO SERIOUS" for schutzhund. What they really mean is that the dog is TOO SERIOUS for them. It's a tougher dog to train than a total prey dog.

Find a club with an experienced helper that knows how to bring out both sides of your dog. See if they ever do any hidden sleeve or suit work. Many PREY clubs teach protection is just a fun game. Find a club that makes it more real for the dog. A helper that shows the dog that the only way to make the preasure go away is to fight him harder. The saying at our club is "we have protection dogs that can do SCH". Then again our TD is the guy everyone in MICH. and OH seems to come to when they have bite work problems with their dogs.

No sleeves are slipped until the handler has a good hold on the line
ramgsd is offline  
post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 01:18 PM
Crowned Member
 
angelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brooksville, FL
Posts: 15,225
Re: Protection

Um, there are some dogs that are too serious for schutzhund that can't be further titled or titled at all. usually this seriousness is due to nerves, but sometimes to a very hard dog. Has nothing to do with being too serious for the handler. A dog that consistently lets go in order to go after the face or the crotch is NOT a sport dog.

Angela

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hardy, Diesel, Jet, Denial v. Zioner Berg, Iris & Patches the cats
angelaw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Number of protection dogs jarn Police K-9 106 10-11-2012 05:56 AM
VIDEO STORY: K-9 gets girls' love and protection ded37 Current Dog Affairs 4 07-08-2008 10:17 AM
Too Young for Protection?? shadow mum General Behavior 6 04-15-2008 08:59 AM
how should i make my dog as protection kool Training Theory & Methods 25 02-08-2008 12:45 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome