Neutered/Spayed Pups Suddenly Fighting - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 10:43 PM
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So you want advice, but have an excuse for why you can't do that?

Snitches get stitches.
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post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by emcale View Post
@voodoolamb - I'm repeating what you said so I understand. What has happened is a combination of pain/discomfort as well as being around the age where littermate fighting starts. The behavior will also escalate with time. If this is true and the behavior will escalate, I need some practical tips to help with this.
The problem is the only sure fire tips to help this is - crate and rotate or rehome.

This isn't something training is going to fix. This isn't something that playing ball 10 hours a day will fix. This isn't something that calming treats and diffusers will fix. This isn't something pills from your vet will fix.

These are ANIMALS. Animals fight. Adolescent animals especially. Littermates exasperate the problem.

Some dogs are passive and get along fine with others and never start anything. YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE TYPE OF DOGS. You have 4 fights under your belt in 5 months time (assuming you got the pups at 8 weeks). It's going to continue and it is going to get WORSE as the pups get bigger, stronger, and more mature.

There will be blood.

If you want to keep both these dogs you NEED to come up with some way to be able to separate these dogs physically some how.

What happens when you and hubby go out and these two start a fight with no one to break things up?

I have personally known people who have come home to DEAD dogs or an EYEBALL POPPED OUT because their dogs fought while they were away.

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We're keeping both dogs unless (I guess) something terrible happens. Unfortunately, it might have to come to that because my husband will NOT re-home one.
This sounds incredibly cruel and selfish TBH. You know there is a problem starting. I personally couldn't live with the guilt if something terrible happened to my dog when I knew there was a problem and just didn't do anything about it.

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The roommate we are staying with has male littermates (now 5 years old) and I don't see this behavior in them. And she has not trained them or socialized them well. I'm doing a heck of a lot more work with my dogs than she's done with hers, and hers have turned out fine. Surely there's hope for us.
Your roommate is the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. You... Are NOT. You are falling into the trap of the appeal to possibility. It's like the lottery - Just because people have won, does not mean that you can count on it for yourself.

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So, so far, I'm hearing that basically we're screwed...? At some point, they'll either hurt each other or us and based on the stipulations I'm putting on all of you on the advice, there's no way to prevent it. Is that right?
With the stipulations you have put into place... Yeah. You're pretty much screwed.
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post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
It should be possible to keep them from fighting if you're with them in your bedroom. If you can't be with them, couldn't you tie them up such that they can't reach each other? Unlike others, I don't see it as inevitable that this aggression between them will escalate. Sounds more like a combination of pain or discomfort from their recent surgery, coupled with a lack of exercise. I would expect it to diminish once they've healed enough to get more exercise....ut that will take time. In the meantime just remove the opportunity to fight as much as possible...just my opinion..b
I respectfully disagree with this statement.

In my experience, fighting very much becomes a habitual behavior. Even when the physical cause for the fights is gone - they are still going to be far more prone to fighting then they were before.

Each "successful" fight (Successful as in - it was allowed to escalate into an exchange of teeth) increases the probability of another fight happening.
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post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 10:59 PM
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@MineAreWorkingline - I understand they had major surgery and I should take great care to help them heal. I'm trying my very best. This has only been ONE fight each day. It's not like they're running around like crazy all day. I'm trying to keep them calm and rested as much as possible, but it is very hard with no crate and no support from the people around me. I'm doing my best.

Sure, there's a bathroom with a door on it in our weekend house that we can use to separate, but we can't do that in our weekday house. The bathroom is used by the roommate as well, so that's just not realistic in our situation.

Also, since the roommate has 5 dogs of her own, we can't separate them from her dogs very easily either. She has very little control over hers, so I don't trust that I can tether one in the living room while keeping the other in our bedroom. The tethered one will be bothered by the other dogs throughout the day. We have a tiny bedroom we're staying in that I can shut the door, but they have to be in there together.

I know this is not a fair living situation for our dogs (or for us for that matter), but it is what it is. And I'm basically by myself to deal with it during the day. I'm hoping somebody can tell me that the behavior WON'T escalate and can be managed and people in similar situations have been successful. I really need to hear that right now. Otherwise, I might be dead by the time this is over and done with, most likely from stress
Sometimes people have to do the adult thing. Tie one dog to the bed post and the other to a door knob. This is about what is good for the dogs right now and is on a temporary basis until they heal. Also, since there are five other unruly dogs involved, there is nothing stopping them from attacking or joining in an attack.

I wouldn't be be all too concerned about issues due to them being litter mates though it can be a possible problem. It doesn't seem to be such a big issue in German Shepherds. As somebody else mentioned, I would be more concerned about the behavioral and health changes that come with early neutering but it is too late to do anything about that. Newer research doesn't paint as rosey a picture as older studies did and are showing an increase in aggression, especially dog on dog. IME, there is a quiet, calm confidence that comes with an intact mature dog, especially males.

Time itself is a very powerful component of learning. So learn to wait. Learn to forgive. Learn to backup. It's all necessary for learning.

Teach! Teach! Teach! Be fair to your dog!
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post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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@tim_s_adams - Thank you for the encouraging reply I hope it's not inevitable that the behavior will escalate. I will try to find a way to, when I can't be there with them in our weekday house, to keep them separated. Not sure what that looks like right now, but I'll do my best.

@cloudpump - Perhaps they seem like excuses, but I'm trying everything I can to work with what I have. And I don't have a lot. I'm wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation as mine and has been successful, and has advice on how to cope. It doesn't seem like anybody has. That's why it seems I shoot down a lot of advice because it's not realistic in my situation.

@voodoolamb - That is very scary what you're saying. They get along 99% of the time. Is it really a huge risk to leave them alone together every now and then? I know there are stories, but there are horror stories for everything. Regardless, our situation will hopefully change within the year, so when we have our own place, we can certainly find ways of separating them when we're gone.

I know it's selfish what we're putting the pups through. I want to re-home, but this is not my decision to make. My husband will not hear of re-homing. I have tried to bring up the subject, and it's shot down very adamantly. He even brings up the "if we had twins, would you re-home one because it's difficult?" He questions my ability to be a mother to human babies if I can't handle these animal babies. Please believe me that I want to re-home, but I just can't. I guess I'm being selfish for not just putting my foot down and taking one to a shelter or something, but I really want to put the blame on my husband on this one. There is absolutely nothing I can do.

It sucks my roommate is the exception, and I'm not. I'm working my butt off every day for these two pups, and still there are issues. She does nothing with hers, and they're totally fine. It's so unfair. I guess I just wanted someone to tell me that mine will be fine like hers since at least I'm putting in the work. If that's not the reality, so be it.

Haha, thanks for the reassurance I'm screwed I'm doing everything I can. I'd love to post to this thread in a month or so that everything is fine. I hope I can
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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@voodoolamb - If you disagree with @Time_s_adams statement, is there a way to change the behavior over time? Can you teach them not to fight? Or is fighting just part of having sibling dogs and you have to control the environment, not the behavior?
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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:02 PM
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At the very least... Could you purchase one or two of the fold able metal crates to secure the dogs when you are gone? Set them up in the middle of the floor or heck, even ON the bed... Safer and more secure than teathering. They could be slid under the bed or propped up against a wall when not in use...
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:02 PM
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I'm sorry but I don't understand. Perhaps if you could clarify we could help.

Also curious about a breeder selling two pups to someone.

You can't crate? I don't understand this at all.
You live with someone with 5 dogs and you got two more? Again, I just don't understand.
You would rather have a dog injured or killed then rehome? Sorry you lost me completely.

I agree with Voodoo. This isn't going to go away. At this point you are risking life threatening injury, especially to the female, following major surgery.
I am not trying to be mean or unkind I guess I just don't get it.
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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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@MineAreWorkingline - Tie one to the bedpost and another to the doorknob. Would you suggest this being in the bedroom together? Or should one be in the bedroom on a bedpost and the other on the outside of the door? I'm guessing both inside the bedroom since there are other dogs involved. This would at least help them be separated, though in the same bedroom. Thanks for that advice. I think I'll do that when I'm not there.

As far as the early neutering/spaying, if it was another situation I would have liked to leave them intact. But we and the vet came to a compromise, that this was what was best given our circumstance. I understand most dogs live a long healthy life with early neutering/spaying. I'm hoping mine are in that group

Thanks for the advice.
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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 11:08 PM
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@voodoolamb - If you disagree with @Time_s_adams statement, is there a way to change the behavior over time? Can you teach them not to fight? Or is fighting just part of having sibling dogs and you have to control the environment, not the behavior?
With training and with a keen eye for canine body language - you can stop most fights from ever happening - but only when you are there and are actively supervising.

But all the training you put into them will do JACK when you are not present or otherwise distracted. They are DOGS after all.

To live in a successful multi-dog house hold you need both training and environmental control. If there could only be one - environmental control hands down beats out training in this situation.
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