Von Stephanitz GSD - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Von Stephanitz GSD

Our beloved Max (Max Emil Friedrich von Stephanitz, December 30, 1864 – 22 April 1936) gave us the beauitful and amazing dogs that we own today when he started the breed by purchasing Horand (then known as Hektor Linkrshein) in 1899 when he was only 35. That was the same year he formed the SV with Artur Meyer. Stephanitz used the knowledge he had acquired during his years at the Veterinary College and "...established a ‘grand design’ he wanted breeders to aim for with judging based on angle of bones, proportions and overall measurements. Horand's son Hektor v. Schwaben and his grandsons Heinz v. Starkenburg, Beowolf and Pilot were also instrumental in standardizing the breed. The first Schutzhund trial was held in Germany in 1901, so while tending was the primary focus of the dogs, it's arguably safe to say that the breed was developed with Schutzhund at least as a thought. So, we have:

Horand


His son Hektor


His grandsons Beowulf


and Pilot


and for fun, the first Sieger ever (1899), Jorg v.d. Krone


1913 Sieger Arno


1925 Sieger Klodo


1935 Sieger Jalk


Now, my point in all of this is that the first GSDs looked pretty close to todays malinois. From the first Sieger in 1899 to the last Sieger Jalk, 1935 before Capt. Max's death in '36 the dog became more like todays GSD, yet still lighter and smaller in appearance. In the first 40 some years, it appears that the dogs stayed about the same with some refinement, and some "type" emerging, but still recognizable with the original dogs. However, if you compare even Jalk to a current day Sieger, like Remo


the changes in the last 70 years have been more noticable. In the late 40s and 50s the dogs gained mass and bone. Right around 1968 seems the be the point where the largest shift occured, because after that the Siegers have a less level topline than they have in the past.

I love showline dogs. I own showline dogs. I am not in any way bashing showline dogs (or workinglines either. I have those too). This little trip through history has a point, though, I promise. lol. Showlines that look like yesteryears Siegers still exist and now we get to my point. See? Told you I had one This is a dog that is living today. I do not own him but I have full permission to use his photo. He managaed to win a puppy sieger title at a regionals but I think that will be the only sieger title he ever claims.


Why can a showline today, that so resembles a VA1 dog of the past, not receive the same or even close to the same rating? Is it that our breed has changed so much? I think probably not, as this dog resembles a dog that preceded him by 80 years closely enough. Is it because our conception of what is desireable has changed? I think that is more likely the case. What do you think?

"For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear."
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:05 PM
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Obviously the originating dogs that started the breed, were just that, a start. What was their(breeds founders) goal? Which dog(s) do they(breeds founders) think reached their goal? That is what I want to know.

Dawn Brogan

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:17 PM
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depends on the region, depends on the quality of the competition.
what is the pedigree of that pup .
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:29 PM
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I don't know, my boy Blade looks a lot like the old time GSD's. He is Dark Blk Sable, longer body style. Shorter hair. But wider and more handsomer head (heehee). They don't all look like showlines. . We have some good working dog lines here in America as well as good breeders who adhere to the SV standards.

Sad but Showline standards have wandered off somewhere -. ???

My caps off to all of them.

CATCH YA LATER,
Marshie Mae

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dawnandjr View Post
Obviously the originating dogs that started the breed, were just that, a start. What was their(breeds founders) goal? Which dog(s) do they(breeds founders) think reached their goal? That is what I want to know.
Yeah, what she said.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dawnandjr View Post
Obviously the originating dogs that started the breed, were just that, a start. What was their(breeds founders) goal? Which dog(s) do they(breeds founders) think reached their goal? That is what I want to know.
The original intent was to create a superior breed of shepherding dog.

GSD's were not originally developed to be used in the military nor for police work. It was the progression of time and technology that forced Max to find other uses for his breed, and it was his insistance that the dog be bred primarily for utility rather than looks that allowed it to make the transistion into other areas.

So in the end, Max accomplished two goals. First to create his shepherding dog and then to move forward and let the breed evolve as man's use for shepherding dogs diminished.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:38 PM
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Max realized that shepherding was going away as a primary use for his dogs so he then made every effort to make the GSD the official German Army dog.
That is why the standard calls for so many character components like hardness, willingness to fight but also ability to be a family dog among many others. He wanted a mentally versatile and 'solid' dog as well as a physical one. The last Sieger Jalk, 1935, looked nothing like his predecessors and exactly like today's GSDs.

Last edited by PaddyD; 11-06-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:43 AM
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Hint: when was Sch created in reference to the creation of the breed and was herding still prevalent at that time....also of the four types of dogs used to create the GS were they all herding dogs??
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:51 AM
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Hint: when was Sch created in reference to the creation of the breed and was herding still prevalent at that time....also of the four types of dogs used to create the GS were they all herding dogs??
Pop quiz and no one wants to take it???

The sheep farming industry in Germany declined by approximately 65% between 1873 and 1900. By 1912 the industry was reduced to 20% of it's former self having shrunk by 80%. (no guarantee that those numbers are 100% accurate but they're close)

Max began his breeding program around 1890, 10 years before actually forming the SV, then using Horand as his foundation dog. Due to the rapid decline of the sheep farming industry in Germany during this time it's not hard to see that Max's original goal for the breed had to be modified if the breed was to survive, and we can see that the decline was taking place as he was working on his new breed.

So the question is, does this change the fact that his original intent was to create a national German Shepherding Dog? I don't think it does. What the dog became most known for is a direct result of changing with the times but it doesn't change history. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When ever Schutzhund was introduced, whether it was in 1901 or the 1920's (I've read both in more than one reference) I'm not sure that speaks to the dogs intended purpose other than it was supposed to be a working dog. Dogs that work tending livestock would come under that classification right??

Last question... I'm mostly familiar with the shepherding dogs from the Thuringian and Wurtternberg regions and Horands (and Luchs) background. Please elaborate, it's all pretty interesting.
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:05 AM
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Pop quiz and no one wants to take it???

Last question... I'm mostly familiar with the shepherding dogs from the Thuringian and Wurtternberg regions and Horands (and Luchs) background. Please elaborate, it's all pretty interesting.
LUCHS: Luchs (vom Schatten) - German Shepherd Dog

Horand: V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein) - German Shepherd Dog

Sorry, can't elaborate
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