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Hard Surface Tracking

14K views 87 replies 15 participants last post by  Slamdunc 
#1 ·
Last week I went to a hard surface tracking seminar by Jerry Bradshaw at my local PD. I had a little bit of knowledge on how to do it, but I had a few holes in my program. The seminar was amazing. Jerry and his team were great instructors. So I took my new knowledge, and started my two Dutchies on it yesterday. They are taking to it well.

What are some of the methods you guys use for HST?

Winston 5 months old first Hard Surface Track


Cy, my green dog 18 months old and has zero training. First Hard Surface Track
 
#2 ·
Great videos, as always.

I see you have placed treats along the track but did you place something else? There are darker marks that might just be asphalt fixes or something you put there.

In another words, how did you lay this track different from a grass track?
 
#3 ·
The dark line, is water. I sprayed water down and walked over the water to hold my scent. I then placed treats along the track to keep their heads down and reward them going forward. Just like in grass, starting with food in every footstep, then slowly fading it away.

The difference between this and a grass track is what the dog is scenting. IN grass, the dog is more tracking the ground disturbance than human odor. The ground disturbance is the stronger scent so easier for the dog to follow. The hard surface the dog is following the human scent. The water helps to hold the odor when they are first starting. So I sprayed the water down and made about 4 passes over it. Then laid the treats down and ran them. The water also helps me know where I went :)
 
#12 ·
I was talking about this with an AKC Tracking judge a couple of months ago asking her suggestions to try and get my dog going on hard surface because it's hard to get him to put his nose down and work, he just doesn't think the track will be there I guess.

She said she has tried sock feet, and also smearing like lunchmeat on her shoe soles to try and make a more noticeable scent for a green dog to follow.

My dog usually tracks 20-30 feet ahead of me, @mycobraracr would you think I should get right up there with him to try and get him to put his nose down and work as if he is a green dog because on hard surface he is?
 
#15 ·
They are tracking different scents when on soft surface vs. hard surface. On soft surface they are tracking the ground disturbance since that's the strongest odor. Hard surface doesn't have the vegetation disturbance and the scent in general is less. The scent falls into the cracks, and in between.
 
#20 ·
I trail, the distinction being not a FST, however, I've never had difficulty with dogs on VST or hard surfaces.. They have just naturally followed the odor wherever it was laid... Even my newest who is now 14mos old, worked hard surfaces as young as 12wks old...
 
#25 ·
I've never had difficulty on VST or hard surfaces.. My dogs have just naturally continued to trail.. Even the pup at 12wks was working hard surfaces.. I am not sure if it is us as humans that have the issue more then the dog
If you know how to teach a dog to track on grass you can teach them to track on hard surfaces... I really think it is the unban that has the issue, lol.

Hydrating the area first is the new fad, and has some science behind it as odor is hydrophilic and gives moisture to dogs nose. Using bare or socked feet can deposit a bit more odor... But if your dog already knows how to follow odor, and they are loyal to it, they will follow it over any surface... As to IGP, the slow FST track will require a bit more finesse, but the theory is the same

Yeah, trailing is different. Generally they are gathering scent from everything, not just ground scent. When Kimber is doing building searches or open field searches, she is more trailing. It's awesome to watch. She hits the edges of the scent cone and it looks like she ran into a wall.

The reason a lot of police dog trainers are going to tracking over trailing is because the speed. Trailing is generally faster. Tracking is slower and more methodical. Since they are generally tracking to danger, they don't want to rush into a bad situation or a bad bite.

There are a lot of similarities, to grass tracking, but some differences. The water is a newer fad. Not super new, but... The reason it works is the surface tension of the water. It suspends the skin graphs and such to the surface making it easier for the dog to pick up. Also and in my opinion equally important is that it lets the handler know where the track is. Otherwise how do you know if your dog is on it, or if it's just smelling the roses? The water and food are only for the beginning stages. It gets faded out.
 
#21 ·
I have done something similar, but used RO (or distilled) water and soaked my just worn socks in it. Scent in a bottle. Need to do this more. You inspire me. I have a small pressure sprayer, but need to wait until we don't have 50+mph wind gusts. Loved by a Dutch
 
#24 ·
If you know how to teach a dog to track on grass you can teach them to track on hard surfaces... I really think it is the unban that has the issue, lol.

Hydrating the area first is the new fad, and has some science behind it as odor is hydrophilic and gives moisture to dogs nose. Using bare or socked feet can deposit a bit more odor... But if your dog already knows how to follow odor, and they are loyal to it, they will follow it over any surface... As to IGP, the slow FST track will require a bit more finesse, but the theory is the same
 
#85 ·
I never really followed the “ baiting idea” once the dog learned hard work tracking combined with obedience training he learned to use his nose for everything just like the wild I started by crossing a road then looking for a track once he knew there might be more tracking in the other side he began very close nose work The more difficult the surface the deeper the nose got I don’t really think air scenting ever got in the picture . Tracking across a fresh burned field was not an issue tracking across the high school football field and finding an article Was not even a challenge Over all once obedience and reward was introduced tracking any time was , I YHINK , just fun for the dog . We tracked almost every day at least something in the south it can get hot muggy and dusty in the same day I drive right by the tracking field every day going too work so I often laid tracks at my convince it was like going for a walk for my dog. I went to numerous seminars then in the winter I was in norther minn woods in cold and snow. I always watched wolf tracks Some times they led to “ kills” always sad for the victim Wolves didn’t always follow through so they must have been thinking of something . Why didn’t they stay on tracks who knows may be they were just not hungry enough or maybe it was not worth the effort . They aren’t dumb animals
 
#28 ·
Agreed on the slower aspect of tracking vs Trailing... As well as why water is used for suspension of odor. My point was just that if a dog follows odor, hard surfaces are not really a problem.. There are intricacies that occur due to odor skating across the surface at times, as well as the bldgs and obstacles creating eddies and odor distortion, but if a dog is loyal to odor, they will follow it to its conclusion. Regardless of surface
 
#30 ·
Yep! If the handlerays the dogs track, then basically the dog should turn around and look at them expecting their reward... As a SAR K9 handler I never Kay my dogs tracks.. Ever.. I know some people who have, and honestly, they consistently have trouble with their dog on odor.

I've even gotten into trouble telling my dog to ignore the hot track (I have 3 Trailing dogs, so sometimes an end of one trail is the beginning of the next trail for the next dog. Having someone get back to the next end spot if they don't have a car means they walk, basically laying a fresher trail, albeit not directly next to the aged trail about to be run, but still near the start of the track) and run the aged I track I want run... Not a good practice as I want my dog to always find their target odors freshest track.. So I run a lot of aged to hot tracks to help correct my mistakes..
 
#31 ·
Winston's track from today. This is the mall parking lot in front of Outback Steak House at lunch time. So you could smell the food from there. The asphalt was very broken up in some areas, and I introduced going over a curb/median today. He's progressing well. I am also fading myself out of the picture a bit.

 
#33 ·
#39 ·
That did cross my mind, I just wasn't sure if I wanted to start that yet. Cy's story is an interesting one. I've only had him less than 2 weeks. He's 18 months old and has/had ZERO training. I figured I'd pick him up and give him a shot. I really like him so far.
 
#44 ·
I've laid 90% of all the tracks my dog has ever run. He seems to track better on a track laid by a stranger. He was a tracking machine in both tests he has been in

His first track not laid by me was his TD certification track. Second was his actual TD

Almost all the AKC trackers I know do the same
 
#46 ·
Alright. I was tempted enough to try hard surface tracking with my 11 week old.

Background: he's been doing IGP style tracks since I got him, almost three weeks now. Starting with scent pads, then triangles and now toe to toe tracks. I use kibble because I use half his meals for training. He does about twenty feet pretty well, with deep nose and methodical speed on good days. He does this at home and parks with distraction. In grass, he's usually with the track and not distracted easily. He seems to enjoy himself and we have a good time doing it.

My hard surface process: I used a supersoaker to lay a track in my driveway. I walked the track toe to toe three times all in the direction of the track. I laid a kibble in every foot print.

Vandal didn't seem as happy or concentrated on the hard surface as he is in grass. He got distracted from the track twice and missed two kibbles. I used the close hand gesture like mycobraracr did in the video. I am wondering if it is because I didn't start with a scent pad on the hard surface. Something like a square of water, walked in and then sprinkled with kibble. I know he's young and that can contribute too. I'll try another tomorrow, either a short track or a pad.

Any thoughts?
 
#48 ·
Couple things, 1) Make sure there is a good amount of water down. Also use distilled water. Tap water has chlorine, fluoride and other stuff in it that the dogs can pick up on. 2) Use a bigger reward. Like physically bigger. In the beginning stages, you can use some visual aid to help with the process. That's what my hand is pointing to in the video. The next hot dog to work on keeping the head down and forward motion. You can use scent pads like on soft surface, however not necessary.

This is Winston's last track. I threw some new things at him. Too many at once, so I will back track some. I got a little ahead of myself. There is limited water on the track, I added a couple 90 degree corners, and no hot dogs on the track. There is a food reward (not hot dogs), but it's mashed into the concrete, so no visual aid.

 
#62 ·
I have done formal nose work training by an instructor and then non formal trailing for fun. Often just having the dogs find the kids hiding in the woods. Quite awhile back I had contacted a local sar trainer who is active in sars work to learn more. They have lessons. My daughter was also interested in sar as well although I have no idea how she find the time for that. Some life events postponed things. Last spring I picked up my daughter early from school. I brought Luna just to ride along. I took her out and told her to find Cameron. Luna trailed or looked liked she tracked my daughter on cement from the parking lot all the way to the same door my daughter used to enter the school I noticed she did not pick up her head once and she was on a feverish mission until she reached that door handle. There were hundreds of kids also that had took the same route to get into the school hours ago. It was impressive because I have not done much scent work with her and only very informal out of the blue find the kid games. My daughter did remind me of the the skill she has yesterday also. She really is impressive. Max and Luna play off each other to and looks like they try to outdo each other. Contacting a local sar team would would be the best plan as Michelle suggested.
 
#63 ·
Thanks Jenny. That’s a great story. These dogs sure are amazing. We piggy backed a hiding session this weekend: a kid hid, Vandal found and while he was getting his down and treat, I hid and then repeat. He really liked that game.
I think you two have great advice and I’ll reach out to a SAR team soon. Thanks for thinking of our situation ?
 
#64 · (Edited)
They really are quite amazing. The dogs save so many lives or give closure to many families. I feel safer when is see a dog working at airports and train stations. That was the summer before last. Luna is always more with her nose glued to the ground which it looks like she has had training in tracking but not I am not sure if the breeder did any tracking work as a young pup and Max is more airscenter. I had reached out to someone local who I know is a gsd breeder /show handler who also did sar work and she gave be the number to the sars trainer who was a lot more local then I thought. Max’s breeder had puppies that went off to be cadaver dogs and I had always been interested in scent work, tracking ,trailing detection works Cat Warren has a book what the nose knows a really great book about her cadaver work. after her dog passed she planned to get to get into cadaver and sar work with her new pup. Not sure if she ever did If so I do hope she writes another book about it.

The book in original version
https://catwarren.com/
 
#65 ·
I decided to try Kimber on an HST today. It wasn't the easiest track for a beginner, but I figured I'd see what she could do since she already understands to follow odor. She does article searches, IPO tracking, building searches and some detection work. So she at least knows what I'm asking her to do. She did great! She checked the track a couple times, skipped one of the 90 degree corners, but followed really well. It's kinda hard to see in the video, but the water was almost completely dried up when we ran it. This one was also aged 5 minutes. I'm really happy with how she did. I really only brought her, because she's getting jealous I've been working the dutchies so much. She knows she's my number one haha.

 
#66 ·
I have only watched the first two videos and haven't read all the comments. I teach hard surface scent discrimination tracking seminars to LE agencies. The hydrated method works really well to get dogs acclimated to hard surface. It works extremely well for converting dogs that were trained traditionally on grass and have trouble on hard surfaces. That is the first stage of our system for tracking and we use it for a month or two, then we progress to "tracking in drive."

One thing I noticed in your video is your hand down in front of the dog and guiding or helping the dog. That is something I've seen a lot of K-9 handler's and civilians doing to help their dog out. It is something that I do not do. I have to work with handlers in some of my seminars to stop doing that. IMHO, the best thing you can do is let the dog work it out all by itself. The dog learning to problem solve, recognize odor and show a loss of track indication starts with the first hydrated track. Allow the dog to leave the track and reacquire the track on it's own. Just do not let the dog wander to far off, only a few feet then stop and wait the dog out. Watch for the head snap and the dog recognizing the odor and going back to work on it's own.

Just like any other tracking, we can not teach a dog to track. Dogs know how to track, we just have to teach the dog to track in the style that we want. The design of the track and placement of food is the key. Your serpentine tracks are the perfect way to start.

Also, keep in mind that as the dog progresses it does not need to track with it's nose down on hard surfaces or any surface for that matter. The best Police K-9's are more trailing dogs than tracking dogs. My dog will trail on hard surfaces with his head up and move quickly, he is extremely accurate and driven. But, he will periodically go nose to ground on sidewalks and streets. Which is a nice thing to watch but absolutely not needed to track a person across busy parking lots and down city streets.
 
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#68 ·
One other thing, we always work in very busy parking lots to start. Like a Walmart, Home Depot, etc. I want cars driving over and tons of people walking across the first tracks. We start in heavy pedestrian areas with lots of vehicle traffic. I do that from day even in the seminars I teach. The dogs learn form day 1 to ignore distractions and other odors and people. That foundation really helps when we move to the more advanced tracks.


Thanks for the input Jim! Yes the first few tracks, I had my hand in front to guide them. I've already faded that out. My goal is to keep their head down. At lest at this point with the boys. I want them to think nose deep while they're learning. I will release the rains once they get further along. Like with my Kimber tracks, she is checking the track and using some air scent. That's okay for her since she has a LOT more experience with using her nose.

I am using various parking lots all over. I've been using the mall and various restaurants around lunch time. I have also started them on articles, and will be using those on the tracks soon.

Thank you for the input. It's always welcome!
 
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