Drive-Hectic Behavior-Nerve - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by selzer View Post
Lots of dogs are shipped, They have to be removed from the crate on the other end, usually by a stranger. I brought Odessa out of the crate after her trip from Germany. She was 3.5 years old and Schutzhund titled, but certainly not a k9. I know lots of k9s are purchased as young green dogs or already trained, so is there a problem with getting them out of the crates safely?
The dog was at the agency..no shipping required. Any half ass handler should have no issue dealing with a crated dog.

Anyways ditto on the xMals, low cost, generally good health, very good nerves, high prey = good police dogs.
Suttle has some nice vids out there of the type of dogs he uses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFZSYndHSo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc

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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 04:58 PM
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I study K9s when I see them and notice what you are saying. The dogs tend to be over the top in behavior and not the social K9s I remember from community events when I was younger. I notice it on this board, where the first thing people say they want is a high drive dog for IPO. In reality how many owners end up titling dogs in IPO? I've seen posts here from owners saying the "IPO" dogs are reactive or out of control. Really? Isn't stability a sign of a good IPO prospect?

We just purchased a working line dog from a line of IPO dogs, that is not high drive and is very sociable, our breeder sells the drivey dogs as K9 prospects and the rest as pets, but breeds for temperament, stability and structure. We got a WL not because we are going to pursue IPO, which I think is a trendy fad, but because they were the most stable dogs we found in our search.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 09:30 PM
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Drive-Hectic Behavior-Nerve

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Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post

Suttle has some nice vids out there of the type of dogs he

Absolutely! And Seeing him work them even better

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 09:38 PM
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Since he was brought up, Suttle really liked Frank.
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
In the K9 circles I see, a few trends are becoming popular.

1) All people are looking for is over the top drive. Mostly civil and IMO unstable dogs.
The problem I see is that it's sometimes the wrong drives for the type of work that's going to be done, that are "over the top."

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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
2) People are rewarding hectic behaviors and thinking they are great over the top drives. In return getting a less clear headed dog.

3) Crappy nerve getting brushed under the rug because "the dog has over the top drives that will carry him through." Dogs never getting truly tested out of an extreme state of drive.
If the wrong drive is primary, it won't "carry him through." Instead it will cause problems in the training that many trainers can't handle.

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Number three is the most concerning to me. Handlers with dogs who are displaying fear aggressive behaviors are getting told this is good because the dog is civil and would make a great "police dog" even though it gets washed from sport.
I've been around for awhile and have travelled a bit. I don't see "fear aggressive behaviors" very often. I do often see over−the−top prey drive that few trainers can successfully work with.

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In some cases, it seems that the most important part of the dog is who it came from.
I have seen vendors and trainers who think this way.

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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
Not the dog itself. It just seems that all handlers are looking for is over the top drive and a dog that doesn't think and will bite anything. What happens if the dog falls out of drive? These are peoples' lives we're talking about. How is this acceptable?
Handlers are usually not a good choice to select dogs. They have relatively limited experience in working dogs and many have never selected a dog. A handler often knows only enough to work his own dog. But sometimes, when it comes time to get a new dog for an agency, they turn to the senior handler to make the selection. It's a case of the near−sighted, leading the blind.

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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
I would love the input of those who have been around much longer than me and have seen the various trends over the years. What do you see in your areas? Where do you think this is headed? Have you noticed the breed of dog having an affect on the "type" of dog PD's are looking for? For example, the introdiction of more and more mals/dutchies making people now want higher drives and less social, stable dogs?
Mals were introduced to the US as largely giving a financial advantage to the vendors who sold them in place of the GSDs that they used to import. As the use of K−9's soared in the 1980's in the US, the most popular breed was the GSD. As the demand increased, so did the price. But then a major importer of LE K−9's in the US lost an opportunity to purchase a large number of GSDs from Germany, the primary source for them at that time, because there was a whispering campaign, that he'd reneged on paying some bills and no one would sell him any dogs. He went to some nearby countries and found a funny little brown dog that was competing in a sport with some of the same characteristics as SchH. They were available and they were relatively cheap, costing him thousands of dollars less than the GSDs, and so the Malinois came to US shores to be sold to LE agencies. He sold them at the same prices as the GSDs, making him tremendous profits for doing the same thing.

But there was a problem. Those dogs had pronounced levels of many of their drives, much higher than those of the average GSD, and that caused many issues with the training. Many trainers tried to use the same methods that they'd been using for decades on GSDs only to discover that many of these dogs folded under the pressure and many of them put their handlers in the hospital, in protest.

Mals are great dogs but they require a much different method of training and handling, than a GSD, if one is to capitalize on them to the fullest extent.
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:36 PM
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I am just a GSD pet owner but have been around a while. I've always had GSD's but never read or participated in a GSD site. It FLOORS me how "specialized" this breed has become through demand.
As special needs arise, many breeders who want to sell dogs to those engaged in those venues will breed dogs who do better in them.
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:36 PM
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I don't really worry a whole lot about the trends. There are people out there breeding for nice balance for any sort of work and this is where you go when you want a dog. It is as simple as that
If you're doing highly specialized work, dontcha think that a dog that's been specifically bred and selected for that work will do better than a dog with "a nice balance for any sort of work?"
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:37 PM
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I understand this. The problem is these dogs ARE getting placed and working on the streets. Yes there are people trying to do it right, but in this world, it's more about who you know than the product you produce. This has just been my experience. I'm also not talking about only GSD's. I'm talking about K9's in general of all breeds and mix of breeds.
This has always been a factor, no matter what is being discussed. For LE work, I've always thought that the ONLY thing that mattered what the end product, the quality of the dog when he hit the street. I don't care where a dog came from, who the vendor was or what his breeding was.

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I will also add, that I believe these very trends are what drive breeding decisions. Show, sport, work, pet. All driven by trends IMO.
I agree. And I think that usually, those trends are driven by money. Look at what happened to the breeding of the GSD in Germany when the thrust of the SV turned from working dogs to show dogs. Fight drive was bred away for prey drive because it produces a much better looking competition dog. SchH went from being a breed survey to being a sport. Finish second at the Nationals and your puppies sell for half of what the top finishers' puppies sell for.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:37 PM
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Where do you get this from?

The trend I see in PD's is the trend of moving away from GSD's for Police and Military work and going to Malinois and Dutch Shepherds.
As SchH moves more into the show dog lines they are less suited for LE work in the US. Hence the move to the Mals and Dutchys.

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Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
You talk about over the top drive and that is relative based on experience. What I may consider a medium drive dog some would consider high drive or "over the top."
This is largely based on experience. I've had pet owners with their first GSD tell me that their dog is "ball crazy" when in fact, he's got only moderate drive for a ball. If someone has never seen "over−the−top" they can't speak to it.

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Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
When it comes to Patrol Dogs, especially dual purpose dogs, Lassie would be a poor Police dog. I can say from my experience of testing hundreds of dogs for potential LE prospects, selecting dogs for my K-9 unit and others, GSD's are not the dog of choice anymore. I love GSD's and I am a GSD guy, but it is really hard to find GSD's with the drive, nerve, strength and aggression that we need.
When the main country supplying these dogs shifts its emphasis on what they're breeding for, that's gonna be a natural result.

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Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
Drive and civil aggression are two traits that are needed for a Patrol Dog. Along with solid nerves, strong temperament and social enough to work around several other cops in a building search. The dog does not have to be super social, just social enough to not bite the guy next to him. Belgian Malinois and DS are different dogs and need to be worked differently, more reactive and can be quicker to bite. We have several BM's and DS's and they are clear headed and driven, stay on task and do a really good job. Please do not confuse higher drive with a dog being less social and less stable. My GSD is very high drive, mali drive, not social at all but very stable. He is now 10 and still working his ass off, but I would have a real hard time finding a GSD like him for my next partner. That is why I decided my next dog would be a DS or Mali X.
I don't care what breed of dog is used for LE as long as he has the right level and balance of drives for the work. HERE'S A LINK to a selection test that I wrote a few years back, that I use for this purpose. Using this test, I've never had to wash out a dog and never had one fail to perform on the street.
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-28-2016, 08:38 PM
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I'm getting this from what I'm actually seeing with my own two eyes. At these trials and training events. I'm not saying the dogs need to be Lassi or jump in the lap of everyone they see and give kisses. I do feel they should be stable enough to walk through a crowded place and not just go off on anyone.
I’m seeing this more and more as well. But many handlers think that a dog that will fire up on someone for just standing in front of him shows that he's a "good tough dog." They are not interested in the reality that this severely limits what they can do with their dog.

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It seems that now days the dogs are just in the vehicle unless deployed. No foot patrolling in Street meets, squares, bizzars, or whatever else you want to call them.
If you've got 'that dog' you simply can't do such things. I teach that a LE K−9 should be on leash during two periods, when he's in training, and during crowd control. The rest of the time he should be worked off−leash. Of course there may be special situations when a leash would be used, but they're rare. When I was a handler, I did daily, off−leash walk−throughs of a very busy mall. The handlers that I trained could also do this. But if you've got a dog that won't allow it, because he's lunging at every third person he sees, due to liability concerns, you can't. Watch just about any of the reality TV shows like COPS, and you see dogs literally dragging their handlers around by the leash. Many of them are conducting area and building searches on leash, because they can't control or direct their dogs. It's rare that you see a dog working off leash, especially when confronting a suspect. The handlers just don't have the control that's necessary to safely work their dogs.
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