Drive-Hectic Behavior-Nerve - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 01:11 PM
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DaniFani, I like your post. Food for thought and your comment regarding the amount of crap GSDs we see out there really struck a chord with me.

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 02:26 PM
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K9 Maxx retires from Coeur d'Alene Police - Coeur d'Alene Press: Local News

Some areas are sticking with GSD's. It sounds like the new GSD they are training will do it all.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input Danielle.

This thread isn't about Mals taking over GSD roles. That's not a new trend. This thread is about what we see in the K9's of today. As Danielle said, every agency is different. So what the norm is for what I'm seeing may not be the norm for all. I also am not saying every dog is this way.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 03:58 PM
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Mycobraracr,
First off, I know that you are an experienced decoy and work your dogs, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I have watched your videos, seen the pictures and have a great deal of respect for what you do.

A Police K-9 absolutely needs to be stable enough to work in crowds, do foot patrols and even do demos for kids. With that said, the K-9 does not need to be so social that anyone can run up and pet it. I have done hundreds of demos with my dog and I always have to tell "little Johnny" that he can't pet the Police Dog. Heck, I was cursed out by one guy for not allowing him to pet my dog. My dog was calmly laying on a sidewalk at a hotel as I talked to another cop. This guy came up, complimented the dog, asked his name and then proceeded to try to pet the dog. My dog never budged, but does not like strangers touching him. I explained for liability reasons that we do not allow citizens to pet our dogs, that the dog bites and our Policy and Procedure doesn't allow it. I was told that "all dogs love me" and "that dog won't bite me!" Then I was told I should have better control of my dog and all Northerners are a**&@(#@s. Since the dog remained in a down for the entire 10 minute rant, didn't move a muscle and was calm, I felt like I had pretty good control.

Patrol dogs need to be clear headed, first and foremost. Dogs that are as driven as I like and with the propensity to bite in prey, fight and defense need to have a strong temperament. You are on the precipice, with a delicate balancing act. Too much drive and aggression without a clear stable mind and you will wind up on the wrong side go the edge. Without the drive, but even with calm nerves you are on the other side, working a bit of a dud. You need the balance and you need both, for sure.

Dogs that can not be around people have limited value and use. I take my dog out of the car on almost every call I go on. he wouldn't be much good if he needed to stay in the car. I also work my current dog on the SWAT team, which really requires a clear headed strong dog. No one wants a dog that will take operators on an op. I have sent my dog upstairs on a covert building clear, had him check rooms and downed him in the hallway to watch a room or downrange. I usually do this from the stair well or even down stairs. The team flows up into the rooms the rooms cleared by the dog. Guys have stepped on my dog going through a door way or down a hall and he doesn't react aggressively if at all.

I do not like Handler Aggressive dogs, I do not like fighting with dogs. Handler aggressive dogs do not run faster, bite harder, search better than any other dog. They are more of a PITA though. I see no advantage to HA dogs and when I test and select dogs I avoid those for out unit.

I'm not sure what trials you were referring too? As far as dogs getting "ran" on the field, it can happen. It can also happen to any dog. If I wanted to run a dog, regardless of how tough and strong he is, it can be done. I don't do it, but the right situation, the right stress and pressure and any dog can be made to bail. We do not do any "trials" with our K-9's, only certification. It might be fun.

"Dogs biting partners," LOL it happens. I've been tagged once or twice on the street. Recently, at the end of a 45 minute two city pursuit at well over a 100 mph. My buddy latched onto my thigh and gave it a good squeeze. It was the other cops that I was worried about. He was pumped and wanted to bite some one, it was a target rich environment for the dog. To Boomer's disappointment the bad guy fell into the thickets bunch of thorns, briars and bramble that I have ever been in. Wrapped up like a briar burrito, the armed robbery suspect gave up.

Any dogs that have weak nerves or temperament issues should not be Patrol dogs. It is easier said then done.

I'm also not saying that GSD's are not good Police K-9's they most certainly can be. But, IMHE it is getting harder and harder to find suitable GSD's that meet my standards. There absolutely are excellent breeders producing very good dogs, but these are not dogs that I see for sale from vendors. I can easily find a super GSD for myself for IPO and a pet, I have one now. But, rarely do I see these dogs offered for sale through vendors.

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniFani View Post
Not a police officer, but train with K9 officers. I see lots of GSD's out there, 4 out of the 6 I train with in Oregon are GSD. There are some really stellar GSD teams in Portland that most patrol guys "hope are on" if they need to call a k9. And I also know several agencies that tried mal's and then decided they weren't doing mal's anymore for some of the reason's Jeremy listed.

There are still vendors and breeders in the US that will give you the kill kill kill dog and agencies that just want a biting machine, but the people I train with put social-ness as the first "test" when getting a dog and then make sure it can "kill kill kill" when turned on (and those dogs are on the streets, with lots of finds and bites and also competing very very well in LE trials).

They also have to consider the handler. Not many first time handlers can handle an out of control or extremely high drive mali, let alone a dog that will re-direct or come up the leash.

Not that this is a debate on whether the GSD is out of LE and working overall, but I think it's a matter of the department/agency and the area you are in.

I was just training in the Netherlands last week with some KNPV clubs, where I was told from the states that GSD's were "unheard of and doomed" and never seen in KNPV. Every club I went to had some stellar GSD's that were certified and breeding. I don't know if you've ever trained with KNPV people before, but the dogs have to be pretty intense. Yet, there were usually 10-15 dogs on the field at a time, several decoys working different dogs on different things, and the dogs never redirected, never went off on other dogs, etc....Dogs that do that aren't trained anymore. Not that they are all perfect by any means, but balance seemed to be an important factor in the genetics....which was cool to see. That and the control was not only expected but seriously enforced. So one could argue that some of that was obedience and not genetics. Ol' nature vs nurture debate there.

Some of the dogs (both gsds, mals, and crosses) we tested for police work crapped out on the environmental nerve test, but you know what? Another US agency was waiting in the wings to buy the same dog we failed for our program....different strokes. The US is so huge with so many agencies that it's so anecdotal what is "seen" and "known."

So I wonder, is it that the dogs are all crap, or is it that the expectations and standards are so vastly different across agencies and the experiences on such a huge spectrum, that what looks "normal" in one area is the exception in the other area?

Jeremy, I don't think I have the experience you are looking for, but I can tell you from what I've seen...yes and no, it seems to depend on where you are looking. I saw people buying dogs from all over the world, US, Israel, UK, Palestine, Egypt, China...their tests and expectations were all over the place. Some wanted killer, some wanted a dog that wasn't strong enough to take a pinch correction because they needed to be able to teach an "out" using only verbal and a leash and flat collar, some wanted the dog that redirected and bit the tester, some wanted a dog that just wanted to eat the handler, some wanted balance...It seemed to be a matter of personal taste, honestly (and of course the standards set forth by their specific govt's and agencies). But every dog from what we considered "not-so-good" to "mediocre" to "stellar" found a job to do and was purchased.

So while I tend to be sickened by the amount of crap GSD's we all see out there, my faith isn't lost, I see nice balanced dogs in agencies, in sport, and in homes. I think there are always breeders breeding what you want, whether that's balance, or more civil, etc...I personally like the balance and can't stand it when I hear people say it doesn't exist (not that anyone here said that), because I see it all the time. In malinois, in GSDs, in DS, I know some pretty awesome specimens that are kickin' it on the streets but can be walked through a mall and pet by children without a muzzle. Like I said....different strokes I guess. ;-)
That is awesome that you were in the Netherlands training. I have a few friends over there and have brought them here for K-9 seminars. I am going to NJ in May to train again with Hennie Bolster and Ruud Leus, two top KNPV and Police Handlers in Hollland. Thursday afternoon I picked up my new Patrol dog as my current dog is getting ready to retire. "Born" is a 3 year old, KNPV titled Dutch Shepherd X Malinois. Intense is the right word and a good word to describe him. You are correct that there are some very nice GSD's doing KNPV in Holland, I keep tabs on them. I love to see it and am always looking for a great breeders hat produces good dogs.

This thread was about trends and that is the biggest trend that I see out here. Our SF guys have moved to Mali X's, most agencies out here are doing the same. The killer dogs you mention are only good if they can "cap," focus and perform several tasks well. Many of those can not.

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 11:04 PM
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Having recently dealt with several agencies in the selling of dogs...there is no norm.

They all have their own idea of what they want. The general trend in these parts is social first then drive and nerves. Many dont have the ability to handle more then a social, forgiving dog with mediocre drives.

My favorite was the test were a stranger removes the dog from his crate...

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-26-2016, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
That is awesome that you were in the Netherlands training. I have a few friends over there and have brought them here for K-9 seminars. I am going to NJ in May to train again with Hennie Bolster and Ruud Leus, two top KNPV and Police Handlers in Hollland. Thursday afternoon I picked up my new Patrol dog as my current dog is getting ready to retire. "Born" is a 3 year old, KNPV titled Dutch Shepherd X Malinois. Intense is the right word and a good word to describe him. You are correct that there are some very nice GSD's doing KNPV in Holland, I keep tabs on them. I love to see it and am always looking for a great breeders hat produces good dogs.

This thread was about trends and that is the biggest trend that I see out here. Our SF guys have moved to Mali X's, most agencies out here are doing the same. The killer dogs you mention are only good if they can "cap," focus and perform several tasks well. Many of those can not.
That's awesome, your new dog sounds great. There was a nice pup out of one of Alaettin Celiker's breedings I liked a lot and would have brought home if I could, mali lol. I know quite a few of the guys that are coming to the states this year. I'm hoping to make it back for the championships in the fall, we'll see. :-)

I've also noticed a lot of mali X's going to departments and working the streets.

It's too bad IPO no longer provides agency's dogs. It's neat that since KNPV provides police dogs it can't get watered down, otherwise they would lose the business of selling certified dogs to the dutch police. From what I understand, back in the day loads of police dogs in the US had their SchH 1's. Obviously that is no longer the case. I think that says something, we can say it's about the money......I dunno, though.

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-26-2016, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Having recently dealt with several agencies in the selling of dogs...there is no norm.

They all have their own idea of what they want. The general trend in these parts is social first then drive and nerves. Many dont have the ability to handle more then a social, forgiving dog with mediocre drives.

My favorite was the test were a stranger removes the dog from his crate...
Lots of dogs are shipped, They have to be removed from the crate on the other end, usually by a stranger. I brought Odessa out of the crate after her trip from Germany. She was 3.5 years old and Schutzhund titled, but certainly not a k9. I know lots of k9s are purchased as young green dogs or already trained, so is there a problem with getting them out of the crates safely?

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Stonevintage View Post
K9 Maxx retires from Coeur d'Alene Police - Coeur d'Alene Press: Local News

Some areas are sticking with GSD's. It sounds like the new GSD they are training will do it all.
mehhh it says a lot when the big boys like s uttle aren't breeding gsds anymore...

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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 01-27-2016, 10:30 AM
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Could it be contributed to lack of funds for training or lack of proper knowledge of dog behavior?

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