K9 redirects up leash - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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K9 redirects up leash

I've been told recently that it's fairly commonplace for police K9s to redirect on their handler when being pulled off the bad guy. I'm curious:
  1. Is this as common as it seems?
  2. Is this acceptable for a police K9?
  3. Is this acceptable for a GSD (or Mal)- temperament wise?
  4. Does this indicate a lack of balance in the dog? I've heard breeders on this forum warn others about dogs in pedigrees known for "coming up" the lead. In most cases, the breeders weren't into the dog for that reason (and probably other reasons). No- I cannot and will not cite references to where I saw that; not sure I could find it again anyway.
Just curious. I'd tend to think this would not be desirable and would indicate an imbalance in breeding, but I could be wrong- that's why I'm asking.

I wonder if getting the bad guy at any cost would be an excuse for allowing such redirecting. We read on this forum about balance, balance, balance- but this sort of thing seems pretty common to me. Can breeders screaming balance justify a dog climbing the lease "in the heat of the moment" when getting the bad guy? I'm genuinely curious.

I mean- is this a difference between "real world work" and "sport training?"

Willy
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Last edited by wildo; 08-05-2013 at 10:17 AM.
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post #2 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 10:30 AM
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Have seen many K9s and training - I see very few that have the levels of obedience and control that the good IPO dog has....

I think alot of green dogs are sold to brokers for resale as K9s because in their initial training, they have been more difficult to get control imprinted, their grips are not full, or they have some characteristic that is more over the top than some want to work with in sport....There is a big market for green dogs in Europe and brokers there have brokers here that maintain a large inventory of dogs for resale....one dog I know was purchased for $8000 - no papers - with papers, add another $3000....in fact, that is one of the nicest K9s I have seen - super well trained, has gotten alot of street bites too....if he had papers, I would think about using him for breeding!

As far as coming up the leash, that is just drive leaking usually, with a dog who has not been taught control and to cap his drives...my first female, Kyra, would do that as a young dog occassionally...it was not aggression, just drive leaking...when I have seen it at a couple of the K9 groups I have been able to watch, it is the same.

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post #3 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstraum View Post
I see very few that have the levels of obedience and control that the good IPO dog has....
A K9 officer I met over the weekend said basically the exact same thing. I believe she was specifically discussing the out.




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post #4 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 10:41 AM
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It could be several things... Could be just simple redirection with no malice, like grabbing your friend in a bar fight and getting punched in the heat of the moment (remember, the police k9 dog is in an actual real fight here), or it could be the type of dog that gets hotheaded if you take his toy, give a correction, etc. this type of behavior isn't redirection but just being a jerk.

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post #5 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
It could be several things... Could be just simple redirection with no malice, like grabbing your friend in a bar fight and getting punched in the heat of the moment (remember, the police k9 dog is in an actual real fight here), or it could be the type of dog that gets hotheaded if you take his toy, give a correction, etc. this type of behavior isn't redirection but just being a jerk.
I think there are two very different types of redirection though. Just with my own dogs, Dante bit me once in protection. After I outed him off a sleeve he bit my ankle. The second he realized it was me he outed and was "apologetic" about it and it has never happened since and he has tons of fight and loves a hard battle. He bit my boyfriend once in the arm as he was breaking up a fight between Dante and the border collie, again, it was a quick bite and "oh crap! My bad" moment. He was never harshly corrected in either instance because he made a mistake and self corrected.

My female on the other hand, as a puppy would set off in drive about something and come up leash with a grip from **** and did actual damage. It would be the oddest things like my friend taking off her sweatshirt set her off and she attached to her calf (blood drawn) and took off her pant leg when she couldn't have the sweatshirt. I had to choke and flank her off and put a ball in her mouth to stop her. She was 3 months old. We went for a hike and she must of seen something because she went off and then came up got my boyfriends hand and would not let go. There was no malice per say, it was purely not knowing how to control herself in high high drive states. Shortly after the hand incident I took her to my schutzhund coach who has been around the block a time or two, we set her up, she came up leash at my coach and got the correction of her life. I am so happy I didn't have to do it because she was just a baby and I would of felt bad. But it was dangerous and she could of really hurt someone. She has yet to come up at me since, even during high drive protection states. I think the correction came at the perfect time to make an impression. I say this because I know when I was in the military, we had MWDs,who did the same thing as my puppy when they were outed, only they were adults and I am not sure the corrections mattered anymore.


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post #6 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesNY View Post
I think there are two very different types of redirection though. Just with my own dogs, Dante bit me once in protection. After I outed him off a sleeve he bit my ankle. The second he realized it was me he outed and was "apologetic" about it and it has never happened since and he has tons of fight and loves a hard battle. He bit my boyfriend once in the arm as he was breaking up a fight between Dante and the border collie, again, it was a quick bite and "oh crap! My bad" moment. He was never harshly corrected in either instance because he made a mistake and self corrected.

My female on the other hand, as a puppy would set off in drive about something and come up leash with a grip from **** and did actual damage. It would be the oddest things like my friend taking off her sweatshirt set her off and she attached to her calf (blood drawn) and took off her pant leg when she couldn't have the sweatshirt. I had to choke and flank her off and put a ball in her mouth to stop her. She was 3 months old. We went for a hike and she must of seen something because she went off and then came up got my boyfriends hand and would not let go. There was no malice per say, it was purely not knowing how to control herself in high high drive states. Shortly after the hand incident I took her to my schutzhund coach who has been around the block a time or two, we set her up, she came up leash at my coach and got the correction of her life. I am so happy I didn't have to do it because she was just a baby and I would of felt bad. But it was dangerous and she could of really hurt someone. She has yet to come up at me since, even during high drive protection states. I think the correction came at the perfect time to make an impression. I say this because I know when I was in the military, we had MWDs,who did the same thing as my puppy when they were outed, only they were adults and I am not sure the corrections mattered anymore.


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I believe we are in agreement.. however the latter case I don't call redirection, because it was directed at the handler, on purpose, to begin with.

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post #7 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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True but not in an aggressive or jerk sense. Had my puppy been able to have the sweatshirt she would of never gone after the leg. Had my boyfriend dropped her leash, she would have never come up at him. So in my mind it is redirection due to frustration. The object that got bit was not what inspired the drive state.


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post #8 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 07:24 AM
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Can be dog, can be handler, can be training, can be situation, can be a lot of things and can be a combination of multiple elements of the above. So it can be so many reasons that for every team, the reason or core of reason is varied....therefore you cannot generalize a reason for this happening....especially with German Shepherds. You have to see the dog and handler work, then if you understand the dynamics of what is going on with dog/handler/scenario....you can assess why it occurred. Sport is different than police training, police training can be different than real life, the dogs know the difference and often respond accordingly. All police officers don't shoot their firearms with the same accuracy, and most certainly don't shoot with the same accuracy in real situation as they do at fire range. And SOMETIMES other officers or civilians get hit in shoot outs involving police.....maybe some can see the correlation .
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post #9 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 08:50 AM
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I think you need to consider that a lot of these dogs are kenneled their whole life until they are sold as police dogs, so they don't develop a trusting relationship with a handler. When they are sold as adults, they usually have had very little training. I saw a local news story last night about a nearby city getting several new dogs for police work and one of the handlers said how when they got the dogs, they didn't know how to sit, down, come, etc. And these dogs were probably at least 16-18 months old.
Also consider that not all K-9 handlers are that skilled. They tend to overuse compulsion without laying a positive foundation in obedience such as using a tug to train obedience. So the situation is very different than having a dog that someone raised as a pup, layed a proper positive foundation, and has a trusting relationship with the dog. Also, sometimes, coming up the leash is redirected aggression, where if the dog can't bite the decoy, he will redirect his aggression to the next closest thing, which is the handler. You can see why this would be more likely when the handler is essentially a stranger to the dog.
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post #10 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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Here's the video that caused me to create this thread:
Chase ends with suspect ditching car, running on foot - KCTV5

I don't have the experience you guys have, but it looks to me like:

1) the cop seemed quite reserved in collecting the dog- almost afraid
2) the dog went for the cop at 1:32
3) the cop could barely get the dog off

[EDIT]- as well as the fact that the dog missed the engagement from practically straight on, went for a hand on reengagement, and only went for an arm once the guy had fallen on his own.

Willy
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Last edited by wildo; 08-06-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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