Is this the norm? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Is this the norm?

I apologize if I'm asking dumb questions but I suppose a really dumb question is one you don't ask.

I will be looking to purchase a Belgian Malinois puppy next year, either in spring or in summer, depending on what litters are coming up that I will be interested in.

In my search for the right breeder and the right dog, some of my law enforcement friends have recommended breeders that they have gotten dogs from and have been very happy with. I have met some of those dogs and like some of them very much, but in talking to the breeders, I am wondering whether I am expecting too much of a working breeder (as in, for law enforcement, rather than sport)?

I have noticed that most of the breeders I've talked to whose aim are primarily law enforcement agencies don't offer much in terms of warranties against genetic defects, hips/elbows, etc. Whereas many of the sport breeders offer hips/elbows until 24 or 30 months, most of the working breeder seem to offer until 1 year (get preliminary x-rays done and if the hips/elbows are bad, they will replace the puppy).

I've also noticed that a lot of them don't have registration papers on their dogs, which would obviously not be an issue for a police dog but would be an issue if I ever wanted to compete in, say, rally or obedience.

Just curious whether it's the norm for working breeders not to offer much in terms of a warranty and what everyone thought of that? We talk so much on this board about what to look for in a breeder and a lot of these working breeders would raise a major flag based on those criteria. So, just curious about opinions?

I can link some of the breeders I've been talking to, if that would help, maybe someone knows of them and their dogs beyond the people I know who have dogs from them?

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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 06:43 PM
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There is a breeder here that does just that, he imports alot of mals, breeds them as well, but none are registered here, they go to law enforcement and he does sell to the public sparingly..

He doesn't like "females" except for breeding purposes..gave a friend of mine two females that were around 6 months , nice dogs I was rather surprised since they had been kenneled those 6 months, and he did "NOTHING" with them...This guy doesn't offer warranties either..

Would I get one from him? not sure, liked the two I met, but that was only two..

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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 06:48 PM
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yes, it does seem normal. Pedigrees and Confirmation doesn't matter.

Also, no warranty is more like the German/European style. However, that doesn't mean that these breeders won't grant you a replace or money back if the dog ends up with HD or ED.

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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:20 PM
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If you wanted to do rally or obedience, you could always go the PAL/ILP route...

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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:32 PM
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Yes but then the dog would have to be altered in order to get an IPL from AKC. Some people don't alter at all, and others like myself alter under most circumstances, but it's delayed until 18 mo - 2 yrs of age give or take.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:33 PM
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First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies. The majority of law enforcement trainers, buying for an LE department buy dogs that are old enough to test for the correct behaviors and do physicals. Pedigrees and ancestry begin to mean less than the observable potential of a dog during the tests. Secondly, I would never buy a dog that did not come warranted for both health and trainability. In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty. It's just not the normal way business is done.

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyK9 View Post
I've also noticed that a lot of them don't have registration papers on their dogs, which would obviously not be an issue for a police dog but would be an issue if I ever wanted to compete in, say, rally or obedience.
Actually, this is not a problem in any registry. All you need to do is send in photos and fill out an application. It is only an issue for conformation.

The AKC even thought Doerak was close enough in appearances to pass for a GSD. I had nothing in terms of paper for him.

Sorry, I didn't read ahead. I have the problem with Boaz being intact. He can't compete in any AKC events until he is neutered. Which is never! So, we do UKC.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:34 PM
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Yeah, I really don't like altering my dogs unless it's absolutely necessary.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DFrost View Post
First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies. The majority of law enforcement trainers, buying for an LE department buy dogs that are old enough to test for the correct behaviors and do physicals. Pedigrees and ancestry begin to mean less than the observable potential of a dog during the tests. Secondly, I would never buy a dog that did not come warranted for both health and trainability. In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty. It's just not the normal way business is done.

DFrost
Isn't that why dogs are tested through and through before they are bought? What else could there be warranted in trainability if they passed the those tests in the first place?
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2011, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies.
I am aware of this.

These breeders are holding back pups to develop for their "green dog" program and also do sell pups to those agencies that want them. My one friend in VT and several of the other LEOs he works with started with puppies from the particular breeder / importer / broker that he suggested for me.

Quote:
In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty.
It's not that there isn't a warranty at all - but that the warranty seems to seriously differ from those a lot of the "sport" breeders offer. Like I mentioned, some only warranty hips/elbows, nothing else. Some don't warranty hips/elbows to 24 or 30 months of age, either.

Quote:
If you wanted to do rally or obedience, you could always go the PAL/ILP route...
Yes, I am also aware of this. My current dog is PAL/ILP registered. However, I plan to start with a (male) puppy and I do not believe in altering unless it is medically necessary. I did not have a choice with my current or previous dog as they were both rescues.

Even if I were going to alter, it would not be until the dog is two years old, which means we would not be able to compete until that time.

However, I have to admit that while training is important to me, I don't really care a lot about competition, though I've had great fun doing "fun matches" with the various local clubs and other events.

Malinois Ronja - fastest K-9 in VT
=^^= Finn, Ratchet & Ollie

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