Personal Protection dog training???? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 12:14 AM Thread Starter
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Personal Protection dog training????

Could someone please tell me what tactics are used to turn a GSD into a personal protection dog? How do they get the dog to bite? DO they hurt the dog? Is it possible to have a personal protection dog without breaking its spirit? IE meaning will the dog still be a loving dog at home? Help i need advice
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 12:47 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

I'm not exactly sure of the methods used in personal protection training but do however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc. However, there are alot of things to take into consideration such as the dog themselves, the trainer, methods used (not all are created equal), and owner. I would think if all is done properly the bond will be just as good if not better between dog and owner. HTH!

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 01:40 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

When properly done, personal protection training is the opposite of "breaking the dog's spirit." A PPD is made to think he's the biggest baddest dog on the block and that he can take on anyone and win. They should also be taught to obey their owner 100%, otherwise it would be dangerous to have them in public.
So yes PPD's are still very loving to their owners and immediate family. Many may not want to interact with anyone outside of their family.

At some point pressure is put on the dog to ensure that it will not back down from a fight. It's not all positive reinforcement, but that doesn't mean the dog is being abused.

Bad PPD trainers can turn the dog into a fear biter...basically give the dog no option to run if scared so the dog doesn't have a choice but to bite. But that is not the proper way to do it and IMO that is very cruel and is not a reliable way to train a dog. If a dog that's been trained like that realizes in a real life situation that it can bolt - it most likely will.
On the other hand a bad PPD could also teach a dog to fight and win, but not the obedience or control. So basically the dog is a total menace.
It takes a very good trainer and a very good dog to find the right balance.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-02-2009, 07:10 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

I know that there are some guys out there that train dogs for business protection which can be different then PPD family.

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 12:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

Thank you for your reply's
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 12:41 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

Having trained many, many personal protection, security and guard dogs, I can tell you that every single one of the personal protection dogs that I and my team trained lived with a family. And, none of them ever needed any type of negative training. Sure, corrections are part of the training, but interestingly, the corrections are hardly ever used in the actual protection part of the training, and are instead only really required in the obedience part of the training, just like when training a family pet. After all, like phgsd said above, a PPD is nothing but a menace, and not to be considered a trained PPD at all, if obedience is not solid.

As for the actual protection training methods, there is NEVER a need to harm a dog during this phase. In fact, if you did hurt the dog, it would indeed likely break its spirit, as well as possibly cause psychological problems. It is actually quite easy to teach a dog to protect; in fact, it is probably the easiest thing to teach over and above any type of obedience, as far as I'm concerned. For example, I can train a dog to know how to protect in 30 minutes or less, but it can take months to get strong obedience, does that make sense? That's why it's always best to make sure the dog is 99% reliable in obedience before ANY type of protection training is begun. I don't mean to say you need HEEL, Loose-leash walking or any of that. You really only need variations of COME, SIT, STAY, albeit solid responses from the dog, because variations of those commands shape the behaviors that ensue when calling the dog "off".

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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 12:27 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

MrLeadFoot,
I have a beautiful 9month old female that I am starting to take to obedience training. Although low on my list of things that I would like to do with her, PPD is on that list and is something I am thinking of looking into.
Have you ever had problems with this training interfering with other training such as tracking and general overall polite behavior? I live in the suburbs with lots of kids, some are not so great but most are pretty nice.
The trouble makers stay away for the most part and the ok kids like to come up to pet Delilah when I take her on walks around the block. She normally sits there pretty and lets them pet her, then after a min I tell them I gotta go and we continue our walk.
The last thing I want is for Delilah to mistake a kid petting her for something else which is why PPD is last on my list of things to consider training her.
Thanks for any input.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 04:22 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

It's actually ironic that you ask about having problems with PPDs once they're trained, because I just got beat up on another similar thread by some people over my thoughts, even though these folks have never met me, or seen any dogs I've trained. All they wanted to do was argue over every little thing, and I just don't have time for childish nonsense. I mention this only because I've never seen your dog, so can only make general statements, you know what I mean?

I have a near 9 month female myself, and right now I am not doing anything related to PPD with her because of the very reasons you state, even though I've been doing obedience with her since she's been 9 weeks old. It sounds like you are just getting started with your obedience, so you are prudent in walking with caution in regards to protection training.

My philosophy has always been to get solid obedience down, while at the same time exposing the dog to as many worry-free experiences with human adult and children as possible, as you are doing. Since you're just starting obedience, you've got a ways to go before your should even begin PPD training, so you should also use this period to watch as your dog matures, as it will undoubtedly develop it's own "feel" for certain types of situations, and you should watch to see how it "deals" with them, and re-shape behaviors if necessary. Know that her perceptions of things she has now may change, too. With my own dog, I want to make sure she has what it takes to NOT use her protection training when she's not supposed to, because any dog can be taught to protect you in one way or another, even if it's the wrong way, you know what I mean? So, teaching NOT to be protective is important.

In my book, there are two types of PPDs. One does nothing on its own, in the way of protection; it only responds to commands. The other is a dog that protects on its own. And, the type of dog you want must be decided before any type of protection training is started. Based on your comments, I'm going to assume you're interested in a PPD that protects only when you tell it to. With that said, I would suggest that you ensure that your obedience work includes the use of high distraction at some point, to help teach your dog some self control, and to pay attention to YOU in preparation for your PP training.

Within the two types of PPDs, there are variations of each type. You might want to start thinking about what you want, and your environment. Do you want a dog that will fiercely battle to protect you, or do you want one that only scares people away?

I have not seen PPD training interfere with typical obedience training. Well, maybe it's more like I wouldn't let it. In fact, PPD training IMPROVES obedience training in a way, because such a dog must be held to a much higher standard of obedience than the typical companion dog, you know what I mean? But, if not trained properly in obedience and/or protection, you could end up with a dog that makes mistakes, eg. being protective when it's not warranted, which is not a good thing.

I recommend that you research as much as you can on the subject on your own, and take everything you hear from PPD trainers, or any other type of dog trainer, including me, for that matter, with a grain of salt, because you never know if that trainer is a know-it-all, who just knows how to talk the walk, does that make sense?

As far as gunshots (I saw your other post), maybe you can try firecrackers as a substitute to start. That should at least give you an idea as to the nerves your dog has when encountering sudden, loud sounds similar to gunshots. I used New Year's Eve as my test, when my dog was 5 months. That's quite young for such a test, but I was careful as to how I exposed her to the noise, and it all worked out. July 4th is coming up, maybe that's something you might consider doing to see how she reacts to at least the sound of firecrackers.

I hope you understand that I cannot advise you on a forum like this, but I am indeed trying to give you as much info as I can that might help you arrive at an educated decision.

Hope this helps.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 08:32 AM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

Quote:
Originally Posted By: AQC82 but do however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc.
As a police dog trainer, I take exception to statements that police training can be brutal. While it's true many trainers use a choke chain, myself included, stating that the dog "has to work for food, treats, toy etc" is inaccuarate. When, in fact, it's the selection of the dog that is the single most important factor in police dogs. Toys, ie ball, tugs etc are used in some training, but it's the inate behavior the dog possesses towards these objects that make the training easier, far from brutal. If you meant brutal in respect to what some of these dogs may have to do, work for a living, be exposed to dangerous situation etc, that's one thing. The training, however, is far from brutal. Training of police service dogs is at worst 90% positive reinforcement. I would hardly consider that brutal. Police/military dog trainers have for years been placed in a class of "yank and crank" trainers. Generally it's by those that really don't understand how a good trainer works to produce the best possible dog. Personally, I would depend on an animal, in a possibly life/death situation, that I had to be brutal with to train.

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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-07-2009, 03:31 PM
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Re: Personal Protection dog training????

Quote:
Quote:however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc. However, there are alot of things to take into consideration such as the dog themselves, the trainer, methods used (not all are created equal), and owner. I would think if all is done
You obviously know nothing about how we train police service dogs. the training is motivational. A dog trained totally in compulsion will be unrealiable.
I closed the other thread. There will be NO personal attacks, sarcasm and anything else offensive or this one shall be closed as well. This was only directed at Lead Foot. This thread will continue in a responsible civil manner or not at all
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