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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

I was discussing with another experienced PPD trainer, and in his experience he believes that it is extremely rare for a dog who will protect for real as a PPD to be safe in a family environment.
1) one reason is the level of sharpness desired in a PPD-one example; kids friends come over to and kids play roughly together and dog isn't able to distinguish if the fight is real or not
2) that often dogs with the temperament to be a PPD may have a dominant tempermant and it is too much of a risk of the dog even if the rank is sorted with the handler, that it may challenge other family members.

I'm not discounting either of these valid points I was just wondering if in the experience of Working line gsd breeders and trainers if they also believe it to be rare for dog who would protect for real to be able to get along with its family ? obviously with some dogs they wouldn't be able to,just curious if there would be more dogs than rare that can ?

I know some strong dogs that have been able to live in a family and some that wouldn't be suitable, but am looking for more info.

I ask working line breeders too because many do look for dogs who do have the suitable temperament to protect for real for breeding, and some of the breeders may have kids, some may not or they may sell pups to family homes, even if they don't would still like opinions

obviously the experience of the handler is also a consideration.


any info is appreciated.

Abby

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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 10:10 AM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

The answer is yes, a good PPD can also be a good family dog....
IF the dog is truly of sound temperament and it's ability to protect for real is true protection, not being overly sharp or civil due to nerve issues.
IF it has *good* training.
IF it is in the hands of a responsible owner who understands the dog and it's training, keeps up on good maintenance training, and manages the dog properly.

Problem is lots of "IF"s. I have seen far more dogs labled as PPDs that were in fact displaying temperament problems that people either ignored, or misconstrued. And far more bad PPD trainers than good ones. And far more people who have PPDs for all the wrong reasons and don't have the understanding or level of responsibility to handle one properly.

I would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.


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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 10:26 AM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

It all has to do with sound temperament and proper training. Way too many PPDs have neither...which results in a dog that should not be kept around children. I've met PPDs that are great family dogs...clingy toddlers & wrestling teenagers included.

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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 12:38 PM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

a good protection trainer will add situations such as the kids rough houseing with friends in the house situation that saying the dog is sound and solid. tyson is in the same kind of training but for sport all though it is real life situations. i will say this that my 11 month old daughter has her way with tyson and he's a brute of a dog.

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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

thanks everyone

Quote:
Quote:IF the dog is truly of sound temperament and it's ability to protect for real is true protection, not being overly sharp or civil due to nerve issues.
yes when i say sharpness I don't mean due to poor nerves.
Agree there are lots of dogs called a PPD when they are nerve bags.

Quote:
Quote: would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.
this trainer also mentioned if he had kids, he would rather a different dog than his own PPD( not a nervy dog has strong fight drive)...so even if there is good management and training there will be some individual dogs not suited because of their temperament traits ?

Abby

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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

nothing else ? anyone have anymore comments ?

Abby

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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 09:06 AM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

Well, I have never met one human being that truly needed a real PPD. Cops are bad enough about being lazy on control work. Civilians have no requirements at all to maintain the out and control so,no, you do not need one. Find another way to feel secure that does not carry all of that liability
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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

Quote:
Quote:Well, I have never met one human being that truly needed a real PPD.
ok.... i wasn't asking if people really need PPD's.

i also asked here because some breeders look for that kind of temperament..

Quote:
Quote: I ask working line breeders too because many do look for dogs who do have the suitable temperament to protect for real for breeding, and some of the breeders may have kids, some may not or they may sell pups to family homes, even if they don't would still like opinions

Abby

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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 01:02 AM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

Nelly, having trained many PPDs, I would have to say that in my experience, the MAJORITY of the dogs I and my team trained were family dogs. A rare few loved the work so much they wanted to do it all the time, an ended up being guard dogs. (To me, a guard dog means a dog that guards property on his own terms, without supervision from a human.)

Now, I should clarify that we were not in the business of training dogs to be PPDs first; rather, they were family dogs to begin with. As such, it's probably safe to assume that each of the MAJORITY described above were already known to have a good "family" temperament, does that make sense?

I also believe that the potential for problems with a PPD down the road really comes down to the owner. Like Chris said, or alluded to, above, if the owner doesn't know what they have on their hands, that sets the stage for trouble. It is for this reason alone that we only trained the dogs WITH the owners. My philosophy is that the owner MUST be involved every step of the way. Otherwise, turning a PPD over to an unwitting owner is akin to giving someone a loaded fully automatic weapon with the safety off, in that it's not a matter of if the gun will go off unexpectedly, it's more like, when!

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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 04:53 PM
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Re: PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers

Quote:
Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootOtherwise, turning a PPD over to an unwitting owner is akin to giving someone a loaded fully automatic weapon with the safety off, in that it's not a matter of if the gun will go off unexpectedly, it's more like, when!
actually i would have to say that an "unloaded gun" would be a lot more dangerous. by "unloaded gun" i mean a dog that hasnt been trained and just decides to go off without anybody knowing that the dog had it in him. yes, not just anybody should own one but somebody who decides that they NEED to buy one should take some kind of handler courses to learn how to handle a dog and how to handle THAT particular dog.

even if say that the PPD decides to take action without command, who's to say that the very same dog wouldnt have done the same thing without training??

steve

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tyson v. newbury- PSA PDC

"h*ll on wheels"
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