Ppd + sar - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Ppd + sar

Question for some of the experienced dog sport people. I found a trainer who trains SAR. I have been going and we got the obedience stuff at a level where we could move on to SAR training. So today was our first non obedience session. I get there this morning and he says we'll just go over some stuff inside and he'll show me a couple games to play at home to prime her for SAR . Doesn't want to take her outside and start tracking training because it was 2° Fahrenheit wind chill.
So I said what if you show me the games I can play at home and we try her out in a sleeve. Athena seems to have this natural desire to bite. She's not aggressive she just seems hard wired to bite. He says sure so we go over the SAR games and move on.
He wanted to see how she done so he had me hold her on a short leash why he came into the room wearing some wig and a bite coat. I was to say watch him he came out acting all sketchy she barked I said good girl while he ran off. Repeat repeat repeat. Once she would bark when I said watch he dropped that stuff and we got her on a sleeve. She picked up on biting the sleeve easily. We combined the two. Minus wig and coat just sleeve. I said watch he would act sketchy she would bark he would retreat. Then Repeat, with him approaching and making a move towards I say stop him she bites sleeve repeat repeat repeat. Anyway he said for first time she done really good. I wanted to see if she enjoyed bite work and she really really enjoyed it. So now I'm thinking of taking the next month or two and working on bite work and obedience. We can combine the two. And picking up on the SAR when the weather warms up a bit this spring. I have read that moist warmer air is the best environment for teaching a dog SAR. Anyone see an issue with Athena doing both. Once we would start actual SAR training that is what would be our main focus. Any downside to this that I'm not realizing.
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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:05 PM
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Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team.

I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team?

SAR is not a fair weather game. SAR is all temps. And honestly hot humid weather is harder for a dog because of how scent moves.

SAR is looking for people that are often odd and disoriented. Strangers, who may strike out, scream, kick at the dog.

Most, not all, reputable SAR teams will not allow a protection trained dog.
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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:10 PM
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All that in one session? Hmm...

Every SAR team I've ever spoke to, will not allow bite trained dogs. So keep that in mind. Both are very time consuming, and both require different things.

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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team.

I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team?

SAR is not a fair weather game. SAR is all temps. And honestly hot humid weather is harder for a dog because of how scent moves.

SAR is looking for people that are often odd and disoriented. Strangers, who may strike out, scream, kick at the dog.

Most, not all, reputable SAR teams will not allow a protection trained dog.
I have looked for SAR teams near me. The same result as SCH near me. Two hour drive minimum. This guy trains police, and security dogs, for departments and businesses all over the US. He knows his stuff. I have to pay a premium but driving 30 minutes compared to 2 + hours is a trade off I am willing to do.

The way it was explained to me is that tracking/trailing dogs can also be trained or will utilize air scents also but if a dog is trained in air scent it is harder to also teach tracking.

What my intentions are is to be tool for LEO's. A certified volunteer

Say little johnny wanders off in the woods cant find him, we get called in to help find him. Alzheimers patient wanders off gets lost, maybe we get called in to help find. I have talked to numerous LEO's and firemen in towns around me. They all say the same thing. Yeah, they would like to have a handler and dog available if needed.

I understand that it is an all weather deal but if moisture in the human capillaries or whatever the heck our scent is released with freezes it is harder for the dogs to keep a scent. He wanted to start off and set her up for success and work her into more difficult situations.

As far as people kicking, screaming, etc... I figured she would be on a long line with harness not free roaming. maybe I am mistaken on that. Maybe different circumstances will dictate that.

And finally shouldn't a proper trained bite dog only be in that mode when I tell her to be. Or only in certain situations. If we never bite on a trail and SAR is a totally separate deal then bite shouldn't be an issue.

Don't want you or anyone else to think that I don't want feed back or opinions just laying my thoughts out to see if I am crazy or if its even kind of logical.
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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
All that in one session? Hmm...
Yeah, we worked her until her bite on the sleeve was not as hard as the previous bites. He said his reactions have to be the same regardless how hard she bit so he didn't want her to think she could soft bite and it be OK.
when his other trainer got there and he explained all we done he couldn't believe we got that far in her first session also. I am telling ya She is hardwired to sniff things out and bite. Wish I had video I am new to all this but she impressed me/
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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:41 PM
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2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal.

How do you plan on certifying? Who is going to watch you and set up problems and test you to a standard that will hold up?

Who is going to carry the insurance on you as a team? Who is going to have liability if your dog bites someone?(ppd or not) or if you miss someone and the family finds out you were used with no qualifications and no measurable standards?

Yes your dog is going to be on a long line(if you plan on tracking) but it takes one second of you 30 meters behind for someone to move into your dogs space.

As for airscent vs tracking- they both have their purpose. I have always trained airscent. Doesn't require a PLS. I have never trained a SAR tracking dog.
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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal.

How do you plan on certifying? Who is going to watch you and set up problems and test you to a standard that will hold up?

Who is going to carry the insurance on you as a team? Who is going to have liability if your dog bites someone?(ppd or not) or if you miss someone and the family finds out you were used with no qualifications and no measurable standards?
I assumed certificate would be issued same as a Leo dog or I would have to travel to get certified. Same as any other sport. Not too bad driving 2-4 hours to get certifications. Compared to driving that far for training sessions.

The insurance, I have already thought that out. My insurance company told me that they had a person a few years ago do this and he got insurance either from the certificate issuing organization or the AKC they couldn't remember which. They can give me liability insurance but it was quite a bit cheaper through the other company.
Paying for insurance? The good thing about running your own business is you know a lot of other business owners. I have talked to a couple businesses that are happy to sponsor us to help pay for the cost of ongoing training, insurance, and equipment etc.. Once certified. Along with my own money.

Kind of presumptuous to assume that my dog and myself will be unqualified, and have no measurable standard. Not sure where that statement is relevant?
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal.

How do you plan on certifying? Who is going to watch you and set up problems and test you to a standard that will hold up?

Who is going to carry the insurance on you as a team? Who is going to have liability if your dog bites someone?(ppd or not) or if you miss someone and the family finds out you were used with no qualifications and no measurable standards?
I assumed certificate would be issued same as a Leo dog or I would have to travel to get certified. Same as any other sport. Not too bad driving 2-4 hours to get certifications. Compared to driving that far for training sessions.

The insurance, I have already thought that out. My insurance company told me that they had a person a few years ago do this and he got insurance either from the certificate issuing organization or the AKC they couldn't remember which. They can give me liability insurance but it was quite a bit cheaper through the other company.
Paying for insurance? The good thing about running your own business is you know a lot of other business owners. I have talked to a couple businesses that are happy to sponsor us to help pay for the cost of ongoing training, insurance, and equipment etc.. Once certified. Along with my own money.

Kind of presumptuous to assume that my dog and myself will be unqualified, and have no measurable standard. Not sure where that statement is relevant?
It's relevant because you never stated how you were going to be certified if not working with a team. If you find somewhere to certify a single non affiliated team, great. LE certifying agencies generally do not certify civilians without sponsorship.

I feel very strongly about SAR. I feel very strongly that to do your best work on a consistent basis you need the support of a team of people that have done it, a lot.

Back to your original question, a vast majority of qualified and reputable SAR teams do not allow dogs with bite work. The liability is too high.
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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team.

I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team?

SAR is not a fair weather game. SAR is all temps. And honestly hot humid weather is harder for a dog because of how scent moves.

SAR is looking for people that are often odd and disoriented. Strangers, who may strike out, scream, kick at the dog.

Most, not all, reputable SAR teams will not allow a protection trained dog.
My understanding with our local SAR team back when we were in California was that they would not even accept dogs who were SCH trained, let alone PPD.

For exactly the above reasons--disoriented victims are often combative.

They had a strict no bite training rule.
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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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I never put much thought into the certification part cause that's what I'm paying the trainer for. I have enough to learn and do with everything else.

I understand that training continues after certification. The one team I have spoke with said that they do come up north occasionally and work in some of the state parks. If I get certified and wanna help and be a part then cool.
The LE's I have spoken to have been nothing but supportive.

So I guess besides a team not liking it. Any downside from the dogs perspective is what I am really looking for.
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