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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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is it just my dog or

The older a protection dog gets the quicker they are to think about going off equipment and just attacking flesh?

When mine is in a fight with a decoy if any serious pressure comes or if the decoy gets rough with her she does not go into avoidence nor does she go and grip harder on the sleeve like she use to a lot of times now she will just go after a unprotected area.

Shes done this in the past but now she does it a lot more. LIke today she went right for the decoys chest before she was trying to get his fingers.

Just when there was a little pressure applied or if a decoy gets a bit rough she just starts to think and pulls her own string on them. Do dogs learn this as they get older that they can just kill or maim the decoy by not biting the equipment and just biting other areas? How do they learn it?

She is happy when she does it and when its over because shes allowed to during work. Its just strange that she knows she can do it when she wants to do it, so the hidden sleeve/jacket means nothing to her anymore? Just confusing. Its like she always knew but recently she will pull the string really fast if things get out of hand like shes saying "OH YEAH? I DONT THINK SO BUDDY WATCH THIS" and it works because it scared and pacifies the decoy and she gets praised by me. Have to keep an hawk eye watch on her every move though in work. Real life shes still the sweet amazing dog when not working.

shes not a angry or people hating dog so she wont do it unless there is a fight going on, she has to win it, but if shes just biting something she wont, its if shes in a fight, i wonder if this is common? Blackhorn knows a lot about this i wonder if she is still around?

ALso she will do it way more often with a new decoy who is trying to push his luck with her than a decoy she knows or has worked with a lot. Thats why if i get a new decoy or if i work her on a decoy in defense i warn them of everything shes done. I never work her on a rookie decoy again unless a very experieinced decoy is right there controlling what is going on.

Last edited by pets4life; 07-11-2013 at 01:20 AM.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 12:57 PM
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I do hope you get some replies from experienced folks in IPO. But, as a layperson, it makes perfect sense to me that a dog in high drive and being roughed up - is going to strike back if not to win but in self defense.


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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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ipo dogs are not worked this way so they will not really know

in ipo if a dog thought about this would be a huge fault, my dog will suck at ipo and fail, in the start of training i think she would have been good at it but not now,

Last edited by pets4life; 07-11-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 03:30 PM
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Sounds like a training issue, or perhaps just a trait of the dog, or a bit of both. If she comes off under pressure and bites for real, its because she perceieves thats the way to win b/c I'm sure it gets a believable reaction of avoidance if she misses/pain if she connects from the helper... which means if he ups the pressure, when she shows strong forward aggression into the helper the helper needs to "lose more loudly" and show her that is the path to success. Simply, I don't think the dog believes the sleeve bite is effective enough. my bitch will come off the sleeve ever so often, or more frequently change her target to the decoy if she gets whipped... got her to fight harder into the sleeve if she's already on it now, but its not 100% guaranteed to go that way

Have a similar thing with my male. After good strikes with a muzzle he fights to take it off... doesn't do this at any other time. In his eyes, that strike wasn't an effective weapon on the helper and he needs to get an actual bite to feel like he's affecting the helper. Same solution... the strike needs to have an overly dramatic screaming crawling away as though he's crippled performance for the dog to go "holy crap... my strike did that? I didn't even bite him".

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 03:48 PM
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To elaborate a little further, I believe if the training is perfect, the dog will come to believe the strong forward show of aggression into the decoy... through a sleeve bite, through a suit bite, through a muzzle, or with just strong barking, is what wins the fight and not that they must resort to a different means to win... The dog should think "I will always win with a more powerful, forward attack into the decoy" and the equipment present or not present should become irrelevent

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Also they say dogs can sense fear she probably knows that when she targets non equipment it scares the decoy

She once put a decoy almost into terror because she ran a circle around him in an off leash attack and was trying to get his hands/fingers. She was happy when she was doing it and had a huge dog smile on her face. This was a long time ago. I think slowly they just learn a decoys weakness when doing fight scenarios. IN sport they dont learn it though or get the chance to.

Last edited by pets4life; 07-11-2013 at 07:40 PM.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-11-2013, 08:12 PM
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Also they say dogs can sense fear she probably knows that when she targets non equipment it scares the decoy

She once put a decoy almost into terror because she ran a circle around him in an off leash attack and was trying to get his hands/fingers. She was happy when she was doing it and had a huge dog smile on her face. This was a long time ago. I think slowly they just learn a decoys weakness when doing fight scenarios. IN sport they dont learn it though or get the chance to.
Yeah that's why the decoy needs to convince her she can scare him without doing that, and that cheap shots don't scare him. If the helper is scared of taking a real bite he's not the right decoy to use on the dog.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-12-2013, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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there always has to be some fear there though i mean most decoys have nasty bites under their shirts, but getting caught in the finger or hand or chest or something by a big strong dog, no sane person is not going to worry about that a bit. When some decoy take off their shirt to show me i was in shock at the stiches and huge lacerations the dogs have given them around the stomach area and arm. Id die if that happened to me. It looks worse then being hit by a bullet. This is years after the fact also. It doesnt seem to heal? One guy lost his finger.


The one that lost his finger to a dog related to mine lol

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-12-2013, 02:20 PM
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there always has to be some fear there though i mean most decoys have nasty bites under their shirts, but getting caught in the finger or hand or chest or something by a big strong dog, no sane person is not going to worry about that a bit. When some decoy take off their shirt to show me i was in shock at the stiches and huge lacerations the dogs have given them around the stomach area and arm. Id die if that happened to me. It looks worse then being hit by a bullet. This is years after the fact also. It doesnt seem to heal? One guy lost his finger.
Maybe those helpers need to be a little more careful... I've worked a wide range of dogs, and breeds, including current world level competition dogs, active police street dogs, PSA dogs, ring dogs... I've only taken one bite that wasn't my own fault... the rest were me getting too bold or careless... I've shown some pictures on here of some aftereffects of bites I've taken and they all hurt, but I'm still not scared of getting bitten in the least... its not that bad really. Now if I came up on a dog like that in a back alley and all alone then I might be more concerned... but in training the worst that can happen is a little pain. Some helpers can't move that quick. Some move faster. I'm small and quick. I've had to literally fight about 4 different dogs outside of training who've tried to make a go of mauling me for one reason or another and I've not yet gotten bitten then, nor am I scared of them or what they could do. I still think if you are scared of getting bitten you shouldn't be working that dog.

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Katya v. Hügelblick
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Yōkai v.d. Sportwaffen
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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She grabbed someone by their chest today they were agatating with no equip, they were out of reach but she some how extended her head or he move a bit too close and she just got a hold of his chest with her front teeth and held on and ripped his shirt pulled his buttons off.

I got so scared I thought she ate the shirt and the button because i could not find it. HOpefully if she did eat his shirt/button or skin ?? she will digust it.

OH yeah hunter I PM you btw I have a few decoys and trainers but all work on one goal.

When worked in the building her performance was better
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