Rally vs. Traditional Obedience - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 10:08 PM
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The CGC test is very worth doing, even though we train and condition for it. I mean, a true temperament test should be done without any training. But people know what is in the TT, and they will open umbrellas around the dog, make sure they hear loud noises as pups like gun shots, will make sure they walk on a variety of surfaces, subject them to strange people.

So, while it may say something about the dog, it might also say more about the owners and their socialization program. I am not knocking it. Just, you should be able to take an unprepared dog through that test and have him pass it.

With the CGC, you train the different tests. You know what is coming, and some people do have to work very hard to get the dog used to each of the exercises enough to pass the test. Does it mean the dog is breedworthy? No. Does it mean the dog will not bite a toddler that comes running out of the blue and thrusts its arms around the dog's neck with a delighted squeal? Sadly, no. Does it give you information about your dog, and your dog valuable information about the world that between the two will probably prevent the reaction described, and will most likely make living with your dog, easier. Yes. And will it give you the bug to keep on keeping on with your dog, trying other venues, doing other stuff? Hopefully. Probably. It is worthwhile.

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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 10:45 PM
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This got brought up on the other thread and I am interested in hearing people's opinions:

Someone said a rally group had been shamed out of an obedience club by the traditional people. Why? What is it that the other folks think is so shameful about rally? Less precision? More interaction with the dog?

I saw it mentioned somewhere that some people think that pure positive trainers can't compete at advanced AKC obedience & are creating easier venues because they can't hack it (not saying I agree or disagree just what I read). Is this part of the rally thing, or more to do with venues like Companion Dog Sports Prog that allow treats in the ring and praise but otherwise seem very similar to AKC?

What would be the benefit of competing in traditional AKC? Proving your dog in a more difficult venue than rally? Is traditional "harder" than higher levels of rally?
That was me. The club is a hardcore obedience group. They had some problem with the rally teacher and used that as an excuse not to offer it again. The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 01:45 AM
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The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.
Ha! More than likely, they've either tried it and failed, or else are too afraid of failing to even try it.

I've done AKC obedience and rally with my oldest girl, and one of these days, I'll get into the ring with the younger two.... meanwhile, I do online titling. With CRO, the fact that it is strictly pass/fail makes it harder than receiving an numerical score, in my opinion. I screwed up an otherwise qualifying run by doing a sign wrong. In AKC or the like, it would have just been points off, but in CRO, it was an NQ. Also, in a live event, if the judge is looking at their scoresheet, sneezes, or whatever, and miss you doing something wrong, hey, that's that, you got a freebie. With video, they can go back and watch it again and again.
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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
That was me. The club is a hardcore obedience group. They had some problem with the rally teacher and used that as an excuse not to offer it again. The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.
We've run across that a few times in our time. But you'd be amazed (and so would those owners!) that high level obedience handlers often have a hard time with rally.
Many of them train on conditioning. The dog knows that you will do A, B, C, and D and even though the order you do them might vary there are really no surprises in the ring. The owners and dogs both seem to have a problem with the ever changing courses and many of the dogs have issues with all the signs in the ring. They are used to a completely bare working area.
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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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@ selzer, re: CGC

Yes, I understand the limitations of what passing CGC means.

I am not sure what it says about him that he does not care for particular types of petting/handling by strangers? When we recently had guests in our home the gentleman gave him a manly pet on the forhead and he was totally cool with it. I have seen him avoid it out in public. He is more social and relaxed at home than out in public. The ear thing has been an issue @ vet, I have been working on it.

On the whole I think I underestimated how hard it would be to expose him to enough given where we live. I can say I never had anyone outside the family handle his feet, should I have done that, to accustom him to it? At this point I guess so.

For the sake of making sure he isn't unmanageable at the vet I think the CGC is good practice. So far he is the best behaved I have ever had for nail clipping. I can do most anything I want to him, some things I need hubby to hold him for, like I can't take his temp alone, need hubby to keep him from out squirming me.

I don't see him objecting to the brushing thing, he loves it when I do it, but have not tested with someone outside the family.

Is it a temperament flaw if he objects to a stranger picking up his front feet in a petco aisle? He didn't do anything especially dramatic, he just pulled his foot away and backed up a step.
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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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Selzer are you saying an unprepared dog should be able to pass both TT and CGC or just TT?
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 05:14 PM
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Just the TT. AKC offers a temperament test, and a dog should be able to pass that without being groomed for it. But a lot of people start their grooming in the whelping box. Just like a dog has to allow a judge to check his berries. Show people get those dogs up on tables, having friends do berry checks at 8 weeks or so. For the young dog who goes into the ring having never had that done, it is interesting to see the expression he gives when the judge checks him out -- been there, done that. Rushie was a good boy, just totally startled.

I think you have to understand that the CGC and even the TT are made up by all-breed fanciers, a test not so much for temperament, but behavior in the case of the CGC. The TT might take some consideration into the breed, not very familiar with it. But for sure the CGC is not made up with GSDs in mind. That doesn't mean a good GSD shouldn't pass. Even a poor GSD can be worked with and pass the CGC.

A dislike of strangers handling his head, his paws, etc, does not indicate poor temperament. But a dog with good character will learn to accept it without protest if the owner works with the dog, makes it clear to the dog that this is going to be done and what is and what is not appropriate.

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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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Well I don't have to worry about berry checks. He only has one, so no point in ever entering him anywhere requiring two

Speaking of that, OB doesn't care about nuts, right? Only conformation?

I really appreciate your insight on the CGC & TT. We will be working on it (CGC) He is a good kid, I think he will get the message
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 09:00 PM
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Well I don't have to worry about berry checks. He only has one, so no point in ever entering him anywhere requiring two

Speaking of that, OB doesn't care about nuts, right? Only conformation?

I really appreciate your insight on the CGC & TT. We will be working on it (CGC) He is a good kid, I think he will get the message
No, OB (or Rally) doesn't care about nuts, only conformation requires two testicles. Any AKC registered purebred can do obedience, full registration, limited, or PAL (Purebred Alternative Listing) registration. In some shows mongrels can be shown as well, but they must have a CAR -- Companion Animal Registration, I think, through AKC.

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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah he is AKC registered, just sadly never dropped that second nut.

We got a confirmation for our entries in our second rally trial. It is a much bigger venue & trial, hope we don't fall apart!

Regardless of anything else, I am very happy with my boy. I find him easy to train, super easy to live with, and willing to try hard at anything I have yet asked of him.
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