Dog passes CGC test... though he should have failed :/ - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-28-2011, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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Dog passes CGC test... though he should have failed :/

Personally, I wouldn't have passed this dog: Duke's Canine Good Citizen Test - YouTube

- dog was unable to stabilize in a sit during the 'accepting a friendly stranger' portion of the test
- dog was overly enthusiastic during the 'sit for petting'
- dog appeared to attempt to jump during the 'appearance and grooming' section, dog appeared to try to nom on the evaluators hand, dog was way too squirmy during this entire section
- dog and handler were NOT in tune during the 'out for a walk' section
- even though the dog is able to pass the test dog, the dog being evaluated lunges at a dog on the side lines (presumably playfully, but it's still a reaction to another dog when there's suppose to be a lack of reaction!)
- dog panics and pulls during the supervised separation; pulls the person holding the leash through closed doors to get to its owner!

Seems if it's true, and the dog did pass this attempt at the cgc test, then this evaluator was way too lax :/

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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-28-2011, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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And for comparison, a beautiful example ... I find it funny that the first is of a GSD, and then the second is of an Aussie... This is very much like it is in my household :P my Aussies are so much more polite than my GSD Canine Good Citizen Test from SmartyPup! - YouTube

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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-28-2011, 11:06 PM
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And for comparison, a beautiful example ... I find it funny that the first is of a GSD, and then the second is of an Aussie... This is very much like it is in my household :P my Aussies are so much more polite than my GSD Canine Good Citizen Test from SmartyPup! - YouTube

Wow, thank you for sharing this video. Sophie and I have a loooong way to go...sigh.

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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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I don't know if it's the same where you are, but around me there are a lot of dog related events (within driving distance at least) which have CGC testers on site that will run tests throughout the event. These kind of events are typically very relaxed and do not require preregistration! It would be a good place to do a test run to see how your dog would do -- from what I've seen, when a dog fails the test, the evaluators tend to be very nice and give suggestions on the different things that could use improvements.

Even if my dog could pass by acting the way the dog did in the first video -- I don't think I'd personally be happy with the success!

I'm going to have Virgil tested on the 24th of next month -- I think we will do fine, my only worry is about the test dog -- Virgil does well walking by 'most' dogs, but he still gets himself in a tizzy when it's a small rambunctious dog!

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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 01:01 AM
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Personally, I wouldn't have passed this dog: Duke's Canine Good Citizen Test - YouTube Nor would I have.

- dog was unable to stabilize in a sit during the 'accepting a friendly stranger' portion of the test Sitting is not required.
- dog was overly enthusiastic during the 'sit for petting' evaluator's have some leeway, if the dog was not aggressive and did not shy away, they can pass the dog.
- dog appeared to attempt to jump during the 'appearance and grooming' section, dog appeared to try to nom on the evaluators hand, dog was way too squirmy during this entire section I think I would have flunked the dog in this section. I never did see her look at the feet. She managed to look in the ears, but you are supposed to touch the dog's front feet.
- dog and handler were NOT in tune during the 'out for a walk' section This does not have to be a tuned walk or heel position. The dog is not allowed to pull the entire time. If this was the only failing mark, I would have passed the dog.
- even though the dog is able to pass the test dog, the dog being evaluated lunges at a dog on the side lines (presumably playfully, but it's still a reaction to another dog when there's suppose to be a lack of reaction!) It tests the reaction to another dog, usually they have a test dog that is non-reactive. But occasionally, they test two dog/handler teams at the same time against one another. I saw the tail end of the reaction to the dog on the side. I did not see if the other dog reacted toward this dog first, if that were the case, I would pass the dog. This is not a test to ensure that there is no reaction whatsoever, but that the dog is under control, the dog cannot bark like an idiot, lunge into the other dog, pull in front of you to get to the other dog. We generally walk forward, sit our dogs, dogs on the outside, exchange pleasantries and walk on by. If the dog tested lunged at another dog without any provocation at ANY time during the test or before the test, I would have flunked it.
- dog panics and pulls during the supervised separation; pulls the person holding the leash through closed doors to get to its owner! Yes, that was bad. But if the man reset the dog and the dog made it through the three minutes, and this was the only mistake int he testing process -- the test process does allow for one of the steps to be redone.

Seems if it's true, and the dog did pass this attempt at the cgc test, then this evaluator was way too lax :/
The CGC is not meant to be a stiff obedience test. It is a starting point for things like Rally, Obedience, Agility. A dog that passes the CGC should be a dog that the evaluator feels confident is stable enough that it would be highly unlikely for the dog to ever bite anyone outside of seriously extenuating circumstances, assailent, serious injury.

The dog should be able to sit, stay, down, and come, this dog did that.
The dog should not go bonkers in a crowd, this dog did fine here.
The dog should be able to walk along on a loose lead -- I have seen worse,
The dog should not lose his mind if there is audio or visual distractions, this dog did fine.
The dog should allow someone to hold him while his owner leaves the room for 3 minutes. It appears that after the dog came back in, the dog managed the three minutes.
The dog/handler should be able to meet someone with another well-behaved dog. It did.
The dog should let you meet someone without jumping on them and licking their ears. Well, kind of -- he did not lick her ears.
The dog should allow you to pet them without shying away. Well, kind of.
The dog should allow you to run the brush down the back, check the ears, check each front foot. It really did not.

I think that failing the CGC just tells you what needs more work. Evaluators are not really doing any favors by passing dogs that flunk. But it is a judgement call. I have seen dogs that passed that I would have flunked. I think that when the person being tested had been in classes with the evaluator, the evaluator has more incentive to pass the individual.


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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
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This is the critera: AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC) Program -- I understand each evaluator has a right to interpret as they see fit, but according to the testing criteria, that dog should not have passed. Failure does not mean the dog is a 'bad' dog, it means the dog needs more work!

True, it's not a ridged test, you are allowed to talk to, encourage, and praise your dog. However, it is a test to ensure the dog is a canine ambassador of sorts. An overly enthusiastic dog is not an ambassador for anything other than rude behavior!

I guess this is where we part ways and say to each his own, but I think very little of dogs that pass the test with level of obedience as the dog in the first video.

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I think that when the person being tested had been in classes with the evaluator, the evaluator has more incentive to pass the individual.


You are not allowed to take the test if your instructor is the evaluator.

I teach CGC prep classes -- I've done practice CGC tests for students (not my own). I am waiting for my paper work from the AKC to be a CGC evaluator. I would never pass a dog that behaved like the dog in the first video.

Anyway, too often are 'friendly' dogs given a pass on bad behavior because they aren't a 'true' danger... however, a kid getting scratched and knocked over by a friendly dog can be a traumatic experience for that child :/

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 01:45 AM
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That must be a rule change. I have been in classes taught by the instructor. Now her husband give the test. Could you point me to where they have that particular rule?

It can be a traumatic experience if the parent or adult monitoring the child is a total idiot. I'm sorry, but falling off your bicycle when you are learning to ride the bike might give you a scratch, big hairy deal. ANY dog might inadvertently knock over or scratch someone. I think a child that goes 18 years never being exposed to anything that has the potential to be traumatic is severely abused/neglected. Every Sunday I babysit my God daughters who are four, and every Sunday when I arrive they have some new scratch or bump to show me that proves they have a life and are not camping out in front of the TV. (I do prefer to give them back without adding to the blood loss, I do not always succeed.)

I have little patience for people being concerned about every little thing traumatizing kids.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
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If the instructor's husband is a CGC evaluator, and has not been one of the primary trainers, then there is no conflict of interest. However, evaluators are to avoid any situations that create a conflict of interest. If the evaluator is your trainer, the push to pass a dog is greater (as you even mentioned in one of your previous posts). Also, an evaluator who has also worked in training the handler/dog is not considered a stranger and cannot preform any of the 'friendly stranger' requirements of the test.

As to whether or not one perceives a child getting scratched or knocked over as traumatic -- a dog who would do such an act should not be deemed a canine good citizen. Personally, if I had kids, I wouldn't make a big deal of something like that. However, it is not sign of a well behaved dog!

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 02:19 AM Thread Starter
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Also, the form for the CGC test (at least the new one) has a pass column, and a 'needs more training' column... so a dog that fails is a dog that the evaluator feels needs more training! Again, it doesn't deem that dog a bad dog, just not one that is ready to be certified a canine good citizen!

:P this is one of the statements in the evaluator book:

“this is really a nice dog. He is so full of energy and it’s clear he loves you. But on these test items, it looks like he needs a little more training… Have you been to any obedience classes?... Most of these behaviors are skills that could be taught in a matter of weeks. I’m so glad you brought your dog today. I hope you’ll work on this and try again. I can tell by the way this dog watches every move you make, he’d do well in training.”

Evaluators are suppose to encourage handlers to continue with obedience training if their dogs do not pass!

There's so much in the handbook for evaluators that tries to describe what to look for, what to pass, what to check off as needs more training. From my reading of the handbook, the dog in the video displayed so many behaviors that would have caused it not to pass.

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Last edited by e.rigby; 08-29-2011 at 02:28 AM.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 08-29-2011, 08:47 AM
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I may have passed the greeting - dogs are not faulted for being happy and wiggley, they just can't jump. The grooming looked pretty iffy though and I get a feeling she couldn't really exmine him, which would be a fail for me. The walking was fine, the dog walked like a dog might on a normal walk and was controlled and not pulling. The dog does not have to heel. I didn't notice the dog lunge but he was quite interested in a dog on the sidelines. The supervised separation was iffy for sure.

On the whole, I don't think I'd have passed this dog but he's not all that bad either. I have seen way worse dogs pass CGC tests. I have seen dogs who growl pass and dogs who are so shy they can't really be touched. There are evaluators out there that don't appear to have ever read the evaluators guide. I'm considered "strict" by some people because I follow the rules in the evaluators guide. Usually when I test classes at least a couple dogs fail. Actually in years of testing, I think I had my first perfect test at a dog show this month - likely because the dogs who were being tested were trained/socialized show and obedience dogs
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