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post #41 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 02:06 PM
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high thresholds --- not angry -- control after with even a nice young girl outing the dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeLu...-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

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post #42 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 03:31 PM
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No matter what the breed was meant for...the pet/sport market will still drive the breed to a greater extent than the working/military/LE market ever will. There are way too many breeders that could care less if their dogs are ever working in that capacity, and the pet market cares more about "AKC champion" than "K9" when it comes to the sire/dam. Only recently have I really seen an influx of people that are starting to look for Schutzhund titles in breedings rather than AKC champions.

Cliff hit it on the head, until the breeders and judges change, not much can be done about the breed as a whole. Judges can affect a generation of dogs, breeders can do the same by pushing their studs on every female that comes into heat in their tri-state area. As an owner...I have one dog I buy every decade, and sure I can "support" a breeder by choosing to give my money to them, but at the end of the day, I'll still just have the one dog. There are of pockets of people breeding well rounded, utilitarian dogs, and its just getting harder to find them. Sad part is that it probably takes some heavy involvement in the dog world to figure out who those people are.
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post #43 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Tough dogs with high thresholds able to take a lot of pressure.....he wants really strong dogs that will bring the fight to the target.....in looking at this training you can see where many of our breed will not make it. He is looking for more than prey drive and rock solid nerve. Strong courage is also a necessity. The ability to punch back....I was going to get a puppy from one of his females that didn't make it with military(Javir daughter), this was a really really nice female. She competed at our trial a couple years ago. Some of his dogs are social, many of them aren't....but they work like **** or he doesn't use them....I have been to his place and seen some of his dogs work.
My post is about Loganhaus dogs and video.....these dogs represent a segment of our breed, but certainly not all of it, but we certainly must retain breeders that have some pups in a litter capable of this kind of work.

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post #44 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 04:03 PM
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Tough dogs with high thresholds able to take a lot of pressure.....he wants really strong dogs that will bring the fight to the target.....in looking at this training you can see where many of our breed will not make it. He is looking for more than prey drive and rock solid nerve. Strong courage is also a necessity. The ability to punch back....I was going to get a puppy from one of his females that didn't make it with military(Javir daughter), this was a really really nice female. She competed at our trial a couple years ago. Some of his dogs are social, many of them aren't....but they work like **** or he doesn't use them....I have been to his place and seen some of his dogs work.
My post is about Loganhaus dogs and video.....these dogs represent a segment of our breed, but certainly not all of it, but we certainly must retain breeders that have some pups in a litter capable of this kind of work.
I wish he had more GSDs but there is a reason he doesn't like you already stated. If there were more shepherds capable of passing his tests Im sure you would see a lot more represented. It makes one begin to consider a Mal..

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post #45 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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@ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.

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post #46 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 06:08 PM
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@ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.
I agree but as martemchick stated money drives the breeding practices. With the SV, AKC and CKC being the registries that most un educated buyers take at face value ( I know I did up until recently ) that wont change. I was at a breeders place recently and asked why they didnt title the male they were using, he was actually quite nice. I was told that there was no real need as 99% of buyers werent interested in bite sports and were just buying a pet. All their litters are sold every year..

I guess in the long run the drift between quality dogs that have utility and glorified pets will continue. Personally I will not compromise on the quality I require in my dog but many buyers even if they do have expectations get attached to the dog and just decide to keep it issues and all. As far as I am concerned any dog / pup with nerve or health issues needs to be immidiately altered, PTS or homed to a place were they will never procreate by the breeder but why should this happen? There is no monetary incentive.

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post #47 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
@ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.
I'm with you, Sir.

If more people treated the GSD as the working breed it was created to be, we wouldn't have this issue. Too many people out there that are looking for a Golden Retriever in a GSD costume. "Show only" breeding, etc. is what has ruined certain segments of this breed.

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post #48 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 07:49 PM
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simple as this, you will get the dog you deserve.

for the most people that buy gsd they want and buy a dim-witted safe pet in a color size and shape they find cool - and good luck to them if they are looking after their dog and have not received the poison chalice of genetic poor health.

i for one will not be-grudge any decent person taking care of their dog just cos they have different goals to me.

my generosity does not extend to the breeders that create these dogs just cos they know thats where the market is.
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post #49 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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@ Blitzkreig.....you and many others (including some I wouldnt expect) are missing my point.....I am not talking about breeding for bite monsters. I have written more than anyone on this forum about dogs capable of seeing-eye work being within realm of excellent breeding. I am talking about breeding sound solid nerved dogs with courage and confidence. They dont have to be huge bite dogs....but sound strong nerved dogs do VERY well in the pet/family environment if they are good GS owners. We also dont want to address the fact that all owners dont want a working type dog or a dog of constitution.....thats fine but by nature that is what a German Shepherd should be. Why do we give a pass to breeders that breed dogs that can stand very little pressure without peeing, tail tucked, worried look in their eyes, and unsure of going into new places without hackles up. Why are we breeding down to pet owners idea of what this breed should be.....you can breed good strong GS and supply families and pet people too. But by nature the breed is active but should settle easily, but when somebody tells me they want a GS that will sit on the couch with them and greet everyone with kisses, I tell them that is not what this dog is and so I dont breed for it. You cant reconcile aloof and confidently standing its ground(which is what they ought to be by definition in the breed) and running up and kissing everyone which is the opposite of that. There is no reason a breeder should settle for producing sound confident strong dogs, the family/pet reason is bogus because sound confident dogs live in families all over the world. I'm sorry there are too many breeders BYB, and reputable that are breeding dogs that shouldnt be bred and hiding behind they are providing for the pet market. Rubbish!
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post #50 of 72 (permalink) Old 04-25-2013, 08:20 PM
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cliff how do you deny the democratic right for people to make mney legally and ethically any way they want - if that means cashing in on the heritage of a breed of dog then so what?
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