No Drive?! - Page 5 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 09:40 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

Thanks, Jean.

Fortunately, I did head home that weekend with a bit of hope in the knowledge that at least some people are as trainable as their dogs. There was a lot of discussion after the events, and I know at least some of the club members started seeing things a bit differently. And the judge and I discussed it quite a bit too, with me explaining why I did what I did, and he admited that in 30 years of training he'd never thought of it that way, but it made sense and the results spoke for themselves.

A good example of why it's important for people to get out, train at different places and with different people and get exposed to new ideas and different ways of doing things and different perspectives on training, because we can all get stuck in a rut and find ourselves getting frustrated over lack of results, when what we really need is just a fresh set of eyes to view the situation.


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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 10:02 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

Couldn't have said it better myself Jean!

I am still learning about SchH training but this post could be about almost any kind of dog training and is the same thing we've been talking about on the recent clicker thread and on many of the various aggression questions. A lot (actually most) "dog" problems are communication breakdowns that are really the handler's fault. We're people. It's our job to understand where the dog's head is and meet them there. They're not mind readers. They also, as Chris so beautifully explains, are pretty simple in their motivations. Frankly, it's a travesty to me to see people put all of the pettiness and vindictiveness of humans onto dogs. Dogs are dogs. They don't seek revenge, they don't even usually challenge people. They like rewards and they respect fairness and clarity. They are more than happy to do whatever you want them to do provided they understand what that is and there's something in it for them. Initially that can be food or a toy, down the road maybe it's just knowing how to make you happy. Watching the relief - and it really is relief - on a dog's face when they finally understand what the handler wants and so how to get the reward and stop all the yelling/nose pops/whatever is being dolled out is both beautiful and heartbreaking that it took that long to get there.

I think one of the saddest realities in dog training is that dogs are forgiving enough and intelligent enough that so many training techniques work. People can use some technique for 30 years and it can work - and it can still be a lousy technique. I'm always happy to see people open to a better, kinder, way of doing things. There have been a lot of advances in the understanding of animal behavior and training in the last 20 years or so and I am very happy to see them!


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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 10:49 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

Chris, thank you for sharing this story and for the insight! I learn more from you and from reading this board than from the trainers in my place (in the middle of nowhere )
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
I just laid my left hand flat under her chin while still holding the tug with my right hand, and using some light backwards and upwards pressure guided her into a sit. And I waited.
That's exactly how I tought 'give' my Yana! When she's too excited and doesn't let go immediately I tickle her under her chin I was shown by the local 'trainers' that I have to hang her on her collar or pinch her lips so she would let go but she was just more determined to keep the ball or tug. Then I decided I better teach my dog from the books than follow such trainers advice, and it worked!! I want my dogs to be happy doing obedience and watever with me and if I have to 'smack' them in order to force them to do an exercise I'd better skip that exercise or find a different way.


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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 11:16 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

<span style='font-family: Georgia'>Chris ~ very WELL written, actually it was an EXCELLENT demonstration of what I'm constantly telling those that want what I have with Dante. The bond between dog/handler is so very important. I had one individual approach me and wanted me to take her dog for a month so I could do some training ~ once I told that individual that I would have to bond with that dog for the first couple of weeks first they weren't interested. So many trainers out there that I watch are so quick to go to compulsion to get compliance out of their dog instead of taking the time to build trust and a wealthy working relationship with their partner. This is only my opinion.</span>

~Lynn~
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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 11:21 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

What upsets me is that some trainers are so quick to use compultion on someone else's dog, not on their own, just to get quick results and show the 'stupid' owner what great trainers they are.


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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 11:49 AM
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Re: No Drive?!

I think that is probably one of the best posts I have seen Chris.

I can imagine how badly you felt for the young pup you sent away to the handler and saw how it was being treated over the out. I think I would have come undone to see the dog hung. That would have upset me deeply.

I started using the word "thank you" for my out years ago. It reminds me to work with the dog and consider that they are cooperating with me.

I taught the out with a food exchange and then back on the tug again. Havoc is the driviest dog I have had and his eyes just gleam with anticipation for the tug toy. But he outs it every time with no argument because he knows there is no need to fight over it and he will get it back. It is in his best interest. Now if I could just teach him to watch out fot finger nails....... He totally snapped my left thumbnail at the quick last night at agility. I guess I should just give up having nice long manicured nails!

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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 12:35 PM
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Re: No Drive?!

Oh Yes EXCELLENT post for sure!!!

And this one also!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
A good example of why it's important for people to get out, train at different places and with different people and get exposed to new ideas and different ways of doing things and different perspectives on training, because we can all get stuck in a rut and find ourselves getting frustrated over lack of results, when what we really need is just a fresh set of eyes to view the situation.

OTCH SG1 (CAN) Deejay von Hausnobilis UD HIT CGN
~A Well-Balanced Dog has Titles at Both Ends~

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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 12:46 PM
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Re: No Drive?!

Chris, great post as always, wow, some great insight. In my current elementary stage of training, I have found that the more I learn about what makes my boys tick/react provides me the foundation to gain quicker results when I train then any individual technique alone that I have learned. I can imagine that the reason most people fail in training is that they fail themselves in understanding the physcology of their individual dog. Everydog is different and techniques have to be adjusted to accomodate those unique traits. Thank you for your insight. Chris, what does "lock up" mean when you state..."So we play a bit, and then I lock up, and ask for the out"

I want to steer back to the original topic of post and ask a question of you all who have experience building drive within a dog. As you all have probably read in my other posts, I have a boy (Max) who is extremely ball motivated and has drive for days, our training sessions have been great as of late because I am learning how to use that drive to progress. On the other hand, I have another boy (Hartwin) that isn't even close to having this sort of drive. If I pull out the ball, he gets stoked on it (drive is up), I will throw it to start a game with him and he will jam off to retrieve it, but will just lay down and play with it himself where he retrieves it (drive down). I can hold another ball in the air (using the 2 ball retrieving technique and trying to reestablish his drive) and he will just look at me like "ya, so I already have a pretty sweet ball that I am playing with". This kind of illustrates where I am at with Hartwin, I would like to maintain the initial drive through our session. As stated earlier in this thread, Zeus recommends that the original poster go back and establish drive through certain techniques. What are the common excercises out there I can partake in to develop and maintaining this drive? I will be getting some super "smelly treats" to work with, any recommendations? I go to Petsmart and all they have is treats loaded with Corn Meal and other products I try to stay away from. I am thinking I will give hot dogs a try, I have read that in other posts, but if there are any real good commercial treats out there I would like to know, please comment...
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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 01:21 PM
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Re: No Drive?!

I'm not a big expert and I'm sure others will give you more valuable advice. 2 exactly the same balls technique never worked for me so I had different toys. After I was throwing a ball Yana was rushing back to me with it because she would expect to get one of the following:tug, throwing a stick, other ball, squiker thing, hose, food, chasing me, jumping on me, a different tug, dumbell. She never knew what to expect and she was so excited to come back with anything and see what I have for her next The major thing for me was to learn when to stop in order to keep her interested because at the beginning I just started with one minute. We still play this game because I enjoy it

Yana isn't the driviest dog, when I got her I could throw a ball at her and try to play with tons of toys and rags and she was just looking at me without understanding what I want from her. Now she's quite a retriever and a tug is her favorite reward.


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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 05:13 PM
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Re: No Drive?!

Quote:
Quote: On the other hand, I have another boy (Hartwin) that isn't even close to having this sort of drive. If I pull out the ball, he gets stoked on it (drive is up), I will throw it to start a game with him and he will jam off to retrieve it, but will just lay down and play with it himself where he retrieves it (drive down).
What about using some sort of tug? Jute or even a ball on a rope.. This way it's more about interacting with you (which is where all good things come) and it doesn't give the dog an opportunity to keep his distance?

Or put the dog on a long line so that way you can reel him back in for more playing..

Leesa~

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