Possessive of ball and 2 ball - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Possessive of ball and 2 ball

Dont want to hijack this thread - but since I have a similar problem thought I will post it. If it needs to be moved to a different thread will be glad to do so and my apologies to the OP if I am hijacking the thread as that is certainly not my intention.

Well, I have a problem with my dog. He is very possessive about the ball. SO I tried the 2 ball trick where he would bring back one and give it up while I threw the second one,and that worked for a while till he decided he wanted both of them. Which means when I throw the ball he goes like a rocket and brings it back but wont give it up but wants me to throw the other and then stand over them and guard them, which means I have to grab one of them from him as he cant fit both in his mouth. I freely admit he is a very strong dog physically and mentally and I know I am not handling it the right way but am at a loss. He is not aggressive towards me at all just does not want to give them up - if it is a tug of war forget it - he loves it. However; when we are back in the house (he carries the ball in his mouth all the way back from the park - about half a mile walk) he will gladly give it up. Not sure what I am doing wrong here, because I do have good control over him and I can call him off if he is chasing something and he will come back and I can have him on a sit stay, call him, go over obstacles, have him sit on a narrow plank, but outing him from a bite or giving the ball - forget it. Any suggestions?
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 01:21 PM
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I moved this to its own thread.

I would not throw the second one without his outing the first. If he doesn't want to let the other go, then game ends and everyone goes back into the house. He will eventually learn the game is played by your rules and not his.

I would also work on the out just in and around the house. If he likes food, trade for food or, if he doesn't, trade for another toy. You can also just hold onto the toy until he lets go (don't fight with him just hold it firm) and when he lets go say "ok" or what ever and let him get it again. I would use a ball on a rope or a tug that you can hold easily. Try not to stand over him. This sometimes works best if you are sitting.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 01:35 PM
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I always approach things by keeping in mind the behavior you're after in the end. With that in mind, I don't ever trade anything with a puppy. She has to bring the ball, toy, bone (she likes to play fetch with her bones as well!) to me and drop it or the game ends. I've found it helpful to have very animated games of fetch in the house where she has to get a toy, bring it to me, drop it, then back up and sit before the game goes on.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 01:56 PM
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I always approach things by keeping in mind the behavior you're after in the end. With that in mind, I don't ever trade anything with a puppy. She has to bring the ball, toy, bone (she likes to play fetch with her bones as well!) to me and drop it or the game ends. I've found it helpful to have very animated games of fetch in the house where she has to get a toy, bring it to me, drop it, then back up and sit before the game goes on.
Yes, and tug games as well. To release a tug toy I freeze my grip and stop engaging and allow the pup to tug as long as he wants. After a sort while you feel the grip weaken and eventually let go. At that moment I tell him "Give". and start over. This has worked for al my dogs. I am not sure if this technique is good for future Schutzhund work as I imagine that you want a consistent strong hold?
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 02:04 PM
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I read something you posted about him, I think inadvertently you may have turned this into a little competition between the two of you. I'd quit trying to snatch anything away, don't contest him for things. The two things I'd think about are like Lisa said with making a trade when he's not in drive and if you can immobilize a tug till he willingly outs it, giving him a rebite for that can help change his perception of the out.

You can try different things with how you play two ball to avoid that contesting pattern you have, but I'd go with narrowing down the out for now till he shows he wants to give it to you, nothing close to you taking.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for moving it to its own thread. I have tried the waiting game of not giving the 2nd ball and game is over - he was confused and disappointed- tried it for 1 week straight. Waited as long as 15 -20 mins for him to give up the ball. I guess he is way more stubborn and patient than I am - so guess who won. Once we get home he gives up the ball for 2 reasons (I believe) - because he knows we wont play in the house and he is thirsty as heck (we are in Fl) so he knows I wont give him water till he gives it up - so he actually drops the ball - smart cookie. I guess I will have to learn to be more stubborn and patient than him. During bite work - the only way to out him is to choke him out, or even pinch his lips - which does not work too well either as he has a very high pain threshold and in fact it makes him bite even harder. We have even tried the helper go totally motion less and both of us sweating in the heat for a long time and my dog still clamped down on the sleeve - I guess again I probably have to wait him out. Pain and intimidation just does not work with this guy - he just gets stronger - I guess that is a good thing - not when I am on the receiving end. He just turned 2 and I can see his personality is really changing - a lot more serious and intense - especially with men at night and dawn when it is dark - twice he has barked aggressively and in one instance just turned around, tail up, and just stare, and hold his ground till they moved off. In all cases when I told him to calm down he did but would not take his eyes off. So it is not that I dont have control over him, I do. Nor is he an aggressive dog as we have kids walk by and even touch him and he was fine - neutral neither aggressive nor friendly - no issues with bikes either. It is just when he is amped up in prey - that I cant seem to control him - he is not hectic - full calm grips (be it ball or sleeve) just wont let go. I have to get it resolved though because God forbid if we are in a real life situation (and he is showing a side of him that is dead serious) I need to get him to release. My trainer is telling me the same thing - you have a very strong dog you just have to be stronger - I guess I was hoping for some "magic" trick - guess not.
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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I know what I will say now will make you folks think - my dog really has it over me. I have stopped all bite work with him (for the last 4 months) - because I think I was just aggravating a problem and making no progress. So decided I will give it a break for a while so I have a better idea how to handle this. It did not help that my trainer relocated so now I have to find a new trainer. Plus with the serious side I have noticed in the last month or so I need to rethink the bite work as I dont want to create a problem and ruin an excellent dog. The more I think the real problem is me and I need to figure how to resolve this. All your advice is really helpful and leads to believe that I need to go back to square and start from scratch.

Just give you a reference point - when my pup was 6 months old and I took him to my trainer to get him evaluated (he does not do any sport primarily LE and govt work) he wanted to check my dog's dominance level. So he had him on a training leash (not a prong or choke chain) the one that tightens if the dog pulls and tried to do a "platz" with him by putting pressure on him. He casually mentioned while he was putting pressure that there has been cases where he had to wait 20 mins before a dog would go down despite the increasing pressure. Well it took 29 minutes (yes we were timing it) in July in Fl before he finally went down. That's when he told me - you have your hands full - and said if you ever want to give him up he was first in line. But he also mentioned your dog is very closely bonded to you and even with the pressure around his neck would not take his eyes off of you. Which is very true - he is really close to me and really in tune with me (more so than I am to him it seems).
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 03:10 PM
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Sounds like you have a great dog there!

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm very curious. It seems to me that the technique of trading for things is more often than not suggested by people who are involved in dog sports, IPO/SCH specifically. So I can't help but wonder if there's some upstream advantage to doing this, as opposed to teaching the out as a rule for continuing play early on.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Mark Twain

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rana View Post

Just give you a reference point - when my pup was 6 months old and I took him to my trainer to get him evaluated (he does not do any sport primarily LE and govt work) he wanted to check my dog's dominance level. So he had him on a training leash (not a prong or choke chain) the one that tightens if the dog pulls and tried to do a "platz" with him by putting pressure on him. He casually mentioned while he was putting pressure that there has been cases where he had to wait 20 mins before a dog would go down despite the increasing pressure. Well it took 29 minutes (yes we were timing it) in July in Fl before he finally went down. That's when he told me - you have your hands full - and said if you ever want to give him up he was first in line. But he also mentioned your dog is very closely bonded to you and even with the pressure around his neck would not take his eyes off of you. Which is very true - he is really close to me and really in tune with me (more so than I am to him it seems).
I would never teach a down that way. Or anything else. There is no reason to break a dog and dominate him like that. EVER.

Luring, rewarding and teaching the dog to want to do it. Work is play-Play is work. You have to find the balance of want to and have to.

I have been fortunate to have one of the best trainers in the country as my mentor. Still fortunate now that she's retiring to have another national level trainer with similar methods. Neither would do that to a puppy.

That's old school and outdated.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
I moved this to its own thread.

I would not throw the second one without his outing the first. If he doesn't want to let the other go, then game ends and everyone goes back into the house. He will eventually learn the game is played by your rules and not his.

I would also work on the out just in and around the house. If he likes food, trade for food or, if he doesn't, trade for another toy. You can also just hold onto the toy until he lets go (don't fight with him just hold it firm) and when he lets go say "ok" or what ever and let him get it again. I would use a ball on a rope or a tug that you can hold easily. Try not to stand over him. This sometimes works best if you are sitting.
This and what Steve said.

Use balls with ropes. make sure you have hold of the rope of the ball in his mouth, without tugging or applying pressure. Out him and he gets the other ball. But you can't just throw one ball and expect him to drop the other if he has high possession. He will learn that letting do restarts the game and gets him the other ball.




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