Loose Leash, forging forward after treats - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Loose Leash, forging forward after treats

I've been trying to clicker train my 5 month old to walk with a loose leash, next to my left side.

I started with a lot of luring to the right position, in addition to stopping immediately if he forges ahead. He knows now that if I stop moving, I don't start again until he is sitting on my left, facing forward, looking at me. He also knows that walking next to me is when he gets the click/treat (c/t). I've been giving him the treat next to the side seam of my pants, to encourage him to stay there (my goal is anywhere from his shoulder to nose in line with my knee, and always on the sidewalk, he can only go on the grass by invitation).

So I take a step, if he's in position I c/t while moving. We keep going at a reasonable pace, but as soon as I push the treat in his mouth, he forges ahead (while chewing). So I stop, and wait a couple seconds. Either he comes to my side, or he stands at the end of the lead and I turn around and walk the other direction (then c/t when he catches up and is walking in position).

So he walks really nicely until I c/t, and then he's gotten the reward so it's like he thinks why keep walking here? I had been treating for returning to my side, but have stopped doing that if it's because he forged forwards while chewing. We can go about 5-8 steps without c/t and he'll walk nicely, but then he gets distracted and pulls in one direction or another.

Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:03 PM
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 02:10 PM
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I use a marker that means what they did at that exact moment is what they are being rewarded for and one that means you don't get a reward but if you do it for just a little longer I will mark it and then you get the reward. So it means keep doing what you are doing and it reinforces the behavior. Reward only comes after the behavior has been completed. eg I want my dog to heel for 10 paces so I ask him heel, walk a few paces, mark (reinforce) with "good", get to ten and mark with "yes" (reward) and out comes toy or cookies. This keeps clear to the dog reinforcement vs reward. The dog is never rewarded during the work, only after.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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I read that post. The OP there wanted help teaching with an older dog, having tried different equipment. Most of the responses are about equipment. My guy's only 5 months old, I'm not using a prong collar. He's also not really pulling - I've taught him that gets him nowhere (so I don't need a gentle leader or harness).

Basically, I've been using this approach from that thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sagelfn View Post
I started using the clicker and put him in a heel position (did not give heel command because I want focus on me for that command) and walked clicking and rewarding him for keeping the leash loose.
The problem is right after the reward, the behaviour ends. Since I want it to be an instinctual behaviour connected to being on the leash, I'm unsure how to proceed with the lesson.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-07-2011, 11:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthurston0001 View Post
I use a marker that means what they did at that exact moment is what they are being rewarded for and one that means you don't get a reward but if you do it for just a little longer I will mark it and then you get the reward. So it means keep doing what you are doing and it reinforces the behavior. Reward only comes after the behavior has been completed. eg I want my dog to heel for 10 paces so I ask him heel, walk a few paces, mark (reinforce) with "good", get to ten and mark with "yes" (reward) and out comes toy or cookies. This keeps clear to the dog reinforcement vs reward. The dog is never rewarded during the work, only after.
I love this concept. How do I teach the reinforcement marker as separate from the reward marker? Like, he knows the click means reward - how do I teach him that "good" means 'you're doing it right, keep doing what you're doing to get a click'?
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stellae View Post
I read that post. The OP there wanted help teaching with an older dog, having tried different equipment. Most of the responses are about equipment. My guy's only 5 months old, I'm not using a prong collar.
Did you see my post in that thread? Read the link I posted?

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Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Here's how I taught Halo loose leash walking: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post2150952

-Debbie-
Cava 1/6/18
Keefer 8/25/05-4/24/19 ~ The sweetest boy
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthurston0001 View Post
I use a marker that means what they did at that exact moment is what they are being rewarded for and one that means you don't get a reward but if you do it for just a little longer I will mark it and then you get the reward. So it means keep doing what you are doing and it reinforces the behavior. Reward only comes after the behavior has been completed. eg I want my dog to heel for 10 paces so I ask him heel, walk a few paces, mark (reinforce) with "good", get to ten and mark with "yes" (reward) and out comes toy or cookies. This keeps clear to the dog reinforcement vs reward. The dog is never rewarded during the work, only after.
yup this is how its done and change up what she gets for treats and rewards. i never give treats on walks except when i stop and she sits. at first some times i'd mark and treat simply for comming and gitting in position on the command heal. i did this at the kitchen counter she also learned front and set and down and touch and speak and speak on hand signals. i'm teaching stay for longer periods using her desire to play with her nose as a reward. basicly insted of shocking her every time she wanted to go snifing around which was a problem every time we left the side walk or black top using treats again i make her sit on the side of the road with a long leash twenty five foot at least walk around and reinforce the stay command ( need to read your dog here)just before she starts to move(its cool watching her change her mind and relax again) then i give her the front command and only after she is sitting in front and starring me in the eyes do i say go sniffy.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Stellae View Post
I love this concept. How do I teach the reinforcement marker as separate from the reward marker? Like, he knows the click means reward - how do I teach him that "good" means 'you're doing it right, keep doing what you're doing to get a click'?
Beleive me it makes a difference! It becomes very clear to the dog with practice. So your primary marker/reward is the click from a clicker. For your secondary marker/reinforcement, I would select a word you have not been using with your dog thus far in order to start with something that has not become a learned stimulus. So let's say you have not been using "good" and that will be your secondary marker. I would ask the dog a behavior it is very good at, sit for instance. I will as the dog "sit", pause for a moment and while said dog is sitting I will calmly say "good", next another pause then click and treat. Super-fun-party-time! The dog only gets the treat/reward after the click, which only comes at the end of the exercise. AT NO OTHER TIME IS THE DOG REWARDED. Hope this helps.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Did you see my post in that thread? Read the link I posted?
I read a little before, and was encouraged to see that I was using combinations of techniques 2, 3 and 5. I had been frustrated though that it didn't appear to directly address my specific problem. I think I was too focused on the specific problem instead of the general teaching method. Clearly, if he's charging forward after a treat, he doesn't understand what I want yet. I think I'd also missed the importance of always stopping to treat, and then moving forward again.

I read more last night and watched some of the videos about silky leash training. I really like that, and might try to start using that with him. It seems like a positive way to teach the skill reasonably quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthurston0001 View Post
So let's say you have not been using "good" and that will be your secondary marker. I would ask the dog a behavior it is very good at, sit for instance. I will as the dog "sit", pause for a moment and while said dog is sitting I will calmly say "good", next another pause then click and treat. Super-fun-party-time! The dog only gets the treat/reward after the click, which only comes at the end of the exercise. AT NO OTHER TIME IS THE DOG REWARDED. Hope this helps.
Looking back now, teaching the reinforcement marker seems fairly obvious, I feel silly for not figuring it out before. But that's great, we'll start working on that right away. Thank you
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-08-2011, 11:11 AM
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[/QUOTE]Looking back now, teaching the reinforcement marker seems fairly obvious, I feel silly for not figuring it out before. But that's great, we'll start working on that right away. Thank you [/QUOTE]

No need to feel silly! It's great all the things one can learn when keeping an open mind!
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