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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Wait for Recall

I'm a little frustrated with my trainer tonight. I take cheap training classes through the local school district with fosters and my dogs for fun. It's a good way to get the basics down for cheaper than other places. There are 3 trainers there one of which being a rescue friend. He does have a way with dogs but he is very heavy on the correction and prong collars which I decided is not the way I want to train Kaiser. This is his first obedience class ever.

At the end of class tonight, we were working on recall. Kaiser has "stayed" the last two classes on the first or second command with the trainer holding the leash in case he broke so tonight I told him not to hold Kaiser's leash just stand close. We have been working on "wait" at home instead of stay and tonight Kaiser didn't listen to either on the first, second or third try. At that point I get frustrated with myself and the trainer.

I have found that he waits if I tell him "sit" treat him and then say "wait" and walk away.

The trainers method for correcting the dog for breaking the "wait/stay" command is to get him in heel position (tell him sit if needed), give him a pop, tell him "stay" and then walk away. We discussed this at the end of class and I said I don't agree with the correction before telling him to "stay/wait" because you are correcting him for nothing (or correcting him for sit if I have to tell him sit). The trainer's theory is that it clears the slate before giving the "stay/wait" command.

So I have two questions. What are your thoughts on the pop before the wait command? and Do you correct the dog for breaking the "wait" command when practicing recall? If so, how?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 08:56 PM
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Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.

If you are doing it the way my trainer told me too, then don't say Wait. If you tell him to sit, then he should sit. If he breaks, then put him back and tell him to Sit again. What else was going on around you? You said this was his first OB class? I think you are expecting to much of him to follow the commands there like he did at home the first time out.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.
You know who I am talking about too.

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If you are doing it the way my trainer told me too, then don't say Wait. If you tell him to sit, then he should sit. If he breaks, then put him back and tell him to Sit again. What else was going on around you? You said this was his first OB class? I think you are expecting to much of him to follow the commands there like he did at home the first time out.
I meant first class as in the total class. Tonight was the 4th week of a 10 week class. He did it the last two weeks okay. The class is in a gym, we wait until almost everyone else has gone so the other dogs are at the other end and less of a distraction.

I know not to expect too much of Kaiser since I have only been actively training him a few months and we are just adding the distraction of a class. We also skipped beginner and put ourselves right into the advanced class. I have taken this class 4 other times with Raven so I know what to do to get him prepped. Of the new dogs in the class, Kaiser is the best. I get frustrated because I know the trainer wants me to correct Kaiser but I don't think it's appropriate for this.

Last edited by gsdraven; 03-09-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.
Do you have clearly different criteria for wait and stay? I would not use them interchangeably (not saying you are, but I can't tell what the difference between them is from your post and which you're trying to work on here), and I see no reason for a pop on the collar before giving a command.

How much time have you spent teaching him what stay/wait means before adding distance, duration, and distraction?

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:07 PM
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I had a pretty solid stay with Halo in a training class (off leash!) by the time she was 6 months old. But I worked on it a LOT.

-Debbie-
Cava 1/6/18
Keefer 8/25/05-4/24/19 ~ The sweetest boy
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Do you have clearly different criteria for wait and stay? I would not use them interchangeably (not saying you are, but I can't tell what the difference between them is from your post and which you're trying to work on here), and I see no reason for a pop on the collar before giving a command.

How much time have you spent teaching him what stay/wait means before adding distance, duration, and distraction?
I am just starting to build the difference between wait and stay with him. The instructors in the class mostly use stay while I am trying to teach Kaiser that wait means wait until I call you and stay means stay no matter what. That's why I used them interchangeably in my post. To be honest, I used "stay" with him the last two weeks but realized that's not what I wanted to do so we have started working on the difference at home.

Kaiser and I have only been training together for about 2 months. Stay and wait are new to him in the last 2-3 weeks.

My posts wasn't so much that Kaiser wasn't doing it perfect but to talk about the training theory. I've worked with this trainer (and friend) since Raven was young and listened to him with Raven but have educated myself since then and find myself agreeing with him less and less which he doesn't really like.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gsdraven View Post
My posts wasn't so much that Kaiser wasn't doing it perfect but to talk about the training theory. I've worked with this trainer (and friend) since Raven was young and listened to him with Raven but have educated myself since then and find myself agreeing with him less and less which he doesn't really like.
Yeah, I did get that, but I was asking because the way *I* would teach each of them would be a little different because my criteria for them is different. For me, stay is stay in that position (stand/sit/down) and I'll either come back to you OR I'll call you. Wait means you can do whatever you want as long as you don't cross this invisible line, but I didn't want to make any assumptions about what the commands mean to you.

This is how I teach stay: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post2057182

-Debbie-
Cava 1/6/18
Keefer 8/25/05-4/24/19 ~ The sweetest boy
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 09:32 PM
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Oh, and I wouldn't be correcting him for breaking at this point, other than verbally, not until he's got a firm grasp of the concept. I just use a no-reward marker, put the dog back in place and try again.

-Debbie-
Cava 1/6/18
Keefer 8/25/05-4/24/19 ~ The sweetest boy
Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18 ~ You left pawprints on our hearts
Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08 ~ Forever would have been too short
Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 10:35 PM
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I think the training theory is crap but you already know that! LOL

In my opinion, putting him in a heel and then correcting him is going to confuse him. He has no idea what he's being corrected for. Like my trainer said, dogs have a 3-5 second recall on connecting things. So, he breaks his stay, he gets put in a heel (which is allowing him to get away with breaking his stay) and then he gets corrected. First, I think to much time has passed so he doesn't have a clue why he just got a pinch. Second, he's being corrected for being in a heel.

In my opinion, he should have been put back in a sit (calmly and without correction because even with 4 classes it's still kind of new to him) and just start over. Reward him for staying in the sit, put him back with just a verbal (negative) marker if he breaks.

btw...I really, really, really wish you were closer so we could train together!
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2011, 10:37 PM
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If you don't do something when he breaks (could be just a verbal "EEHHH" or some such), how is the dog to know that he didn'y do it right?

Doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a real correction until you are sure that he really does know what he is supposed to do.
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