Heads Up Heeling - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SouthEastern WI
Posts: 14,168
Heads Up Heeling

I wanted to get opinions on this training technique:

http://grammozis.de/Freeheeling.htm

Any drawbacks you can see?
Lauri & The Gang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 10:18 PM
Moderator
 
JKlatsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Riverview, FL
Posts: 2,988
Re: Heads Up Heeling

I know this is very similar to how Claudia Romard teaches heeling. She demonstrated it at a seminar that I went to with my older dog...it seems to take some time to develop the "feel" for how to do it without getting your hands totally destroyed, which is why I didn't bother to continue it with Argos. (It is also why they say it is important to establish early on with the puppies not to eat your hand)

This is Argos with Claudia. You can see the feet action.





We started teaching this (actually from this website) to Anka when she was small and I have to say she has pretty prancing heeling and is also very straight. When we switched to the ball (as she got older she was not particularly food motivated) she would swing out more and not be as straight...but then we taught her the flip finish and the IPO turn which straightened her back up and it all seems to be working out nicely.

I've seen other people with small puppies who have done it much better than I have, and I have to say it looks pretty darn impressive.

Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen IPO3, CGC, TC 1-3-08
Cade vom Eisernen Loewen IPO1, CGC 3-25-09
D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen BH 2-2-10
G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02 (Retired)


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JKlatsky is offline  
post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 11:16 PM
Master Member
 
MTAussie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VA
Posts: 859
Re: Heads Up Heeling

thanks for the link! I love this! The videos are really awesome and the author does a great job explaining the procedures. I am impressed!!! (and have something new to try!)

Missing Alex
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MTAussie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Master Member
 
MTAussie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VA
Posts: 859
Re: Heads Up Heeling

I forgot about the poss. drawbacks, like the author mentions she ended up with one of her dogs jumping, and I can see some having a hard time with this and changing their hand position without some problems.

Missing Alex
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MTAussie is offline  
post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-02-2009, 11:44 PM
Knighted Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,415
Re: Heads Up Heeling

I can't watch the video (darn slow dial-up) but the photos look very much like training I saw at a seminar some 15 years or so ago. It was a guy at the seminar showing how he used hot dogs and constantly fed the dog while heeling. He wore leather gloves since you can't ever correct the dog for biting your hands while using the food.

Any method that rewards a dog for being in the proper position (as determined by the handler) is going to work. It's the consistency and choice of reward that suits the dog that makes the method effective. If you reward for straight body/head up then that's what you get. If you reward for curved body, that's what you get.

I've thought about going to the "constant feed" method with Tazer in order to STOP her jumping. She wants to leap up on every step, and with food in my hand I could keep her feet down as I could keep the food at a level where she couldn't jump. But then I run into the whole dilemma of having to wean off of food AND off of using my hand in that position. The more you have to wean away from, the more easy it is to screw up and have a dog de-motivate.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Positive 1ST! More reward, less correction makes a GREAT trainer.
Chows: Khana CD RE SD & Dora NA NAJ GSD: Tazer SDIT
RIP *Trick*Kylee*Dawson*Lady*
Total of 2UDs 3CDXs 12CDs 2REs 8AgilityTitles 1BH Chow!
20 Yrs Training/Teaching Experience
IliamnasQuest is offline  
post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-03-2009, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SouthEastern WI
Posts: 14,168
Re: Heads Up Heeling

Melanie,

I took some pictures from the videos on that site.

Here he is working the puppies:



He said if the pups jump up he pushes their noses down with his hand.

Here's another one of him working a single puppy:



As the training progresses he raises his hand:






I would think if you start by asking for just a couple steps without the jumping and then reward, and use your voice to mark the jumping as incorrect, then maybe you could get rid of the jumping.

I'm not looking for the prancing as much as I'm looking for a straight dog looking up at me. I don't really care for the heeling where the dog curves way around your body in front.
Lauri & The Gang is offline  
post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-03-2009, 01:17 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 19,496
Re: Heads Up Heeling

Haven't look at that site much, but I got Kenya heeling pretty straight, head up all the time, but not totally wrapped in front of me and crowding me. Now that the snow is not waist deep we are using our foundation and working on longer periods of heeling and proofing it in different locations. She is not super food motivated, not the slightest bit toy motivated. I'm trying to get away from luring behaviors and wanting to focus more on capturing them when they are offered by the dog. So with Kenya, because I started out in rally where "chatter" is OK, I basically praised her into the position I wanted with the up, flashy attitude I wanted to see and rewarded that. As she figured it out, I put on a prong to really clean up any forging or lagging. I did not let it correct for just being a little flat/lacking attitude, rather I would use my encouragement to bring her back "up". Her favorite "reward" is the "yes...OK...up!" game. Yes is my marker, OK is my release, and her "reward" is getting to jump up on me and me rubbing her down and praising wildly. This keeps her motivated more than and food or toy, so I use this "reward" after longer periods of heeling, practicing changing paces, etc. For some things like reinforcing sits in the correct position, cleaning up tight left turns, etc I will also give her a treat as a reward and that is good enough for those things but when I want her head up and focused AND her attitude really turned on it seems that the "OK up!" game at the end is her favorite reward. We just did some heeling today and did some longer patterns. She is almost to the point where we are doing a BH type pattern (not exactly THE pattern, but with similar turns, paces, amount of steps, stops) I only have to encourage her two or three times along the way. Sometimes she even rears up along side me and as long as she keeps focus and stays in position I actually praise that b/c I'd rather have a little too much excitement than a really flat dog.

We're currently polishing up for the SDA's FO and OB1 which is like BH heeling and then some different practical exercises. Again I started out in rally so what do I know, but this is working for us. I have to work really hard to motivate her, she will not tug on a piece of raw meat!
Liesje is offline  
post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-03-2009, 11:12 PM
Knighted Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,415
Re: Heads Up Heeling

Lauri, thanks for the photos! That helps me see what he's doing.

I think that in schutzhund style heeling, you can have your arms up in a "pumping" motion (like if you were power-walking) and this type of training translates over well to that. The dog could always look up at your hand (like in the third photo). In AKC style heeling, you're not allowed to get away with holding your hand there (too obvious as a luring technique) and your hand has to be either relaxed by your side or at your stomach (in the middle, over the belly button). And that causes wrapping in dogs that are used to following the hand. So you'd have to be careful in teaching this style if you're going to do AKC heeling.

Tazer is just a wild thing and I can't move very fast these days, which frustrates her to no end. She has learned to throw herself into heel position (left finish) and does it with huge enthusiasm. I want to control the enthusiasm without dampening it much, and that's where we run into problems. I'll have to see what I can do with the hand (she does know targeting to my hand, but it's not a really firm behavior). I've only been working a couple of steps but she starts off with a jump and then adds in some barking .. *L* .. she wants me to MOVE and my toes have been really sore, so walking fast is not possible for me.

Poor Tazer - a fast dog with a slow owner!

Melanie and the gang

Positive 1ST! More reward, less correction makes a GREAT trainer.
Chows: Khana CD RE SD & Dora NA NAJ GSD: Tazer SDIT
RIP *Trick*Kylee*Dawson*Lady*
Total of 2UDs 3CDXs 12CDs 2REs 8AgilityTitles 1BH Chow!
20 Yrs Training/Teaching Experience
IliamnasQuest is offline  
post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 05:41 AM
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SC
Posts: 1,148
Re: Heads Up Heeling

I apologize if you answered this somewhere in your posts, but can you tell me how long it takes to train a dog (very generally speaking) to heel with such precision and enthusiasm? If a dog already has a pretty solid grasp of basic obedience and if you work on the skill each day, how long would it take before such results would be evident?

That might be too subjective a situation to answer with a number like "1 month" or "6 months," but I didn't know if you could offer a ballpark figure.

Those videos were amazing. Thanks for sharing them!
maddoxsb is offline  
post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 09:36 AM
The Administrator from the Great White North, eh?
 
Castlemaid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northern British Columbia
Posts: 16,991
Re: Heads Up Heeling

I'd say, about a year if you have a motivated dog starting from scratch. A few months if you already have a dog with a solid heel.

That is really something you want your dog to do for competition only. It would be very hard on them physically and mentally to heel like that ALL the time.

You start out with not expecting more than a few steps, then 10, then 15, then 20, then 30seconds of good heeling, then one minute, and so on. The biggest challenge is teaching them to maintain their focus among distractions.

Though it is great to teach the dog to have this kind of concentration, focus, and discipline, it is handy in a lot of situations.

Like at times, I'm having a hard time walking Keeta by barking dogs (and loose dogs). A "Foos" command and she snaps into position, holds her head up (though she is trying to roll her eyes and keep an eye on the other dog!), and heels prancing for as long as I ask her too.

It took me about two years to get her there, but didn't start training her until she was about two years old. And I need to continue with the maintenance training, or she has trouble maintaining that focus in heavy distraction.

It helps a lot. I wouldn't be able to walk her through a vet's waiting room without this training in place.

Lucia


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2009-2018

Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD
Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? 2004-2015
Castlemaid is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heads up, lots of questions. Konotashi General Information 9 01-17-2010 12:34 AM
Heads up in Farmington Hills Mi. ken k Urgent 7 07-16-2008 08:20 PM
Just a heads up Dogrunner Germanshepherds.com Forum Support Help Desk 6 05-30-2008 06:47 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome