More States Mandating Animal Abusers to Register as Offenders - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
I'm baffled that some of you making light of laws that put away people who torture dogs and cats with chemical acid burns, skin them alive, put home-branding marks on them to watch them scream, pull their teeth all out using pliers at home in order to use the dogs as bait to be ripped apart for dog fighting, deliberately chain and starve them to watch them die because "it's interesting," cause prolapsed rectums from sexual abuse and more. Oh and in my community, German Shepherds are the favorite bait dogs for dog fighters because of the "good grip" on their necks -- a foster involved in our rescue was approached at work and asked for "the old ones y'all gonna put down anyway"-- including her oldster dying of cancer!

I'm happy some of you live in innocent bubbles where you maybe don't know this stuff exists, but seriously...be careful whose cause you are aligning yourself with if you want to criticize laws criminalizing aggravated animal cruelty. People who do this stuff not only are almost certain to abuse domestic partners and kids, but data is also very clear that they are can be future serial killers in the making. They need to be tracked by law enforcement.
There's a difference between using a dog as a bait dog and what they're talking about in the above posts. We all understand the difference. No one is making light of anything. The truth is in this day and age, we have people easily throwing around the word, "racist" or "sexist." And now we have some person sitting behind a desk telling us we are dog abusers because we use a prong collar, or an ecollar, or etc.? Most of the comments above are people who are concerned that all of a sudden we are labeled dog abusers because of the tools we use, or the training we do, or the food we feed, etc. I read the other day, that someone thinks using crates is abuse. Just think about that. How many of us would be in serious ****, if that was true. You can't seriously think we are joking about this! These are people with real concerns. What you think is dog abuse, someone else may not. And what someone else thinks is, you may not. That's the real concern here.

Imagine this...you are walking down the street with your dog and you correct its behavior with a quick pop. You get home. 24 hours later the cops show up because "some concerned citizen" reported and witnessed that you popped the leash too hard. Or how about this...cops show up at your door because your dog was seen tied up in the backyard for half an hour last Thursday. Your neighbors called to report that because they were sick of your dog constantly barking. But now you're on the watch list for possible dog abuse. Where does it stop?!

Normally I agree with a lot of what you say in these forums. But this time you are way off base.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:23 PM
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tc68, your hypothetical wouldn't happen in my state because I actually know what the aggravated animal cruelty definition is and so do our ACOs. (It actually wouldn't in your state either!)

I know in the TL;DR world, it's become uncommon to read statutes, and if people haven't been trained in how statutory definitions work or how to find court decisions interpreting them, they can end up imagining gross distortions about legal matters. Your bio says Maryland -- in your state the statute expressly excludes from the definition of animal cruelty agricultural customs and husbandry, customary veterinary practices, research, and "an activity that may cause unavoidable physical pain to an animal, including food processing, pest elimination, animal training, and hunting. . ."

That exclusion is literally in the state statute's definition. That's actually a very typical statute. Most state courts tend to construe those exceptions VERY broadly.

We often can barely get resources devoted to good felony prosecutions of animal torturers in most parts of the US, even when the laws are there for it. Prosecutors don't want to devote resources if it's not a public priority--and debates like this one have convinced some of them it's NOT a public priority (I've literally had a conversation about this with our local law enforcement leadership). Those who engage in blood sports try hard to create internet opposition to these laws (and their enforcement) by sowing fear that the laws will impact regular pet owners -- it's an actual tactic in a big-money industry. In my state, we experienced an Internet campaign to stir up opposition to a bill prohibiting sexual abuse of animals -- the Internet fear-mongering created so much baseless worry that it didn't pass the first time, because people (and the legislators themselves) weren't actually reading the bill and were worried about all sorts of imaginary stuff not actually in the bill. Worried legislators literally voted against enhanced criminal penalties for sexual abuse of animals the first time the bill came up based on arguments like the ones here. The arguments made no sense whatsoever to anyone who read the bill, but it didn't matter because "something had been on Facebook" about it.

State-level registries enable full participation in the FBI's tracking of these people in the federal animal cruelty database that's existed since 2016 tracking "gross neglect, torture, organized abuse, and sexual abuse" because of the role it has in other crime (including serial killer tracking):
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/-tr...animal-cruelty
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
I'm baffled that some of you making light of laws that put away people who torture dogs and cats with chemical acid burns, skin them alive, put home-branding marks on them to watch them scream, pull their teeth all out using pliers at home in order to use the dogs as bait to be ripped apart for dog fighting, deliberately chain and starve them to watch them die because "it's interesting," cause prolapsed rectums from sexual abuse and more. Oh and in my community, German Shepherds are the favorite bait dogs for dog fighters because of the "good grip" on their necks -- a foster involved in our rescue was approached at work and asked for "the old ones y'all gonna put down anyway"-- including her oldster dying of cancer!

I'm happy some of you live in innocent bubbles where you maybe don't know this stuff exists, but seriously...be careful whose cause you are aligning yourself with if you want to criticize laws criminalizing aggravated animal cruelty. People who do this stuff not only are almost certain to abuse domestic partners and kids, but data is also very clear that they are can be future serial killers in the making. They need to be tracked by law enforcement.
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Originally Posted by tc68 View Post
There's a difference between using a dog as a bait dog and what they're talking about in the above posts. We all understand the difference. No one is making light of anything. The truth is in this day and age, we have people easily throwing around the word, "racist" or "sexist." And now we have some person sitting behind a desk telling us we are dog abusers because we use a prong collar, or an ecollar, or etc.? Most of the comments above are people who are concerned that all of a sudden we are labeled dog abusers because of the tools we use, or the training we do, or the food we feed, etc. I read the other day, that someone thinks using crates is abuse. Just think about that. How many of us would be in serious ****, if that was true. You can't seriously think we are joking about this! These are people with real concerns. What you think is dog abuse, someone else may not. And what someone else thinks is, you may not. That's the real concern here.

Imagine this...you are walking down the street with your dog and you correct its behavior with a quick pop. You get home. 24 hours later the cops show up because "some concerned citizen" reported and witnessed that you popped the leash too hard. Or how about this...cops show up at your door because your dog was seen tied up in the backyard for half an hour last Thursday. Your neighbors called to report that because they were sick of your dog constantly barking. But now you're on the watch list for possible dog abuse. Where does it stop?!

Normally I agree with a lot of what you say in these forums. But this time you are way off base.

WHAT??? This is off base? Hardly.
Give your head a shake...far cry between crating a dog and skinning it alive. Unless you are crating a dog while staving it to death. Stories of dogs who literally decomposed in their crates before investigators to a hard look. I fail to see how popping a leash and crating a dog in its home or yard for its safety falls under animal abuse.

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Last edited by GatorBytes; 05-12-2019 at 06:13 PM.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GatorBytes View Post
WHAT??? This is off base? Hardly.
Give your head a shake...far cry between crating a dog and skinning it alive. Unless you are crating a dog while staving it to death. Stories of dogs who literally decomposed in their crates before investigators to a hard look. I fail to see how popping a leash and crating a dog in its home or yard for its safety falls under animal abuse.
We see that difference but not everybody does. Keep in mind prong collars are banned in other countries. One place was attempting to prevent cropping, docking, and removing dewclaws even. I think it was New York City of somewhere in New York was attempting to pass a bill heavily restricting kenneling and confining animals. The dimensions for how large a crate had to be was ridiculous, the animal had to be able to escape in an emergency(because they'll only use it in emergencies right?), they couldn't be kenneled at night.

I do think that a step to provide a registry for animal cruelty/charging people is good. But I also understand the concern on what it will be defined as. Especially as extreme animal rights activists continue to legislate for ridiculous laws.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 07:42 PM
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Good, laws are far too lax, punishments too weak. If your first concern is how your treatment of your own dogs is going to be perceived I think you have some misplaced priorities.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
tc68, your hypothetical wouldn't happen in my state because I actually know what the aggravated animal cruelty definition is and so do our ACOs. (It actually wouldn't in your state either!)

I know in the TL;DR world, it's become uncommon to read statutes, and if people haven't been trained in how statutory definitions work or how to find court decisions interpreting them, they can end up imagining gross distortions about legal matters. Your bio says Maryland -- in your state the statute expressly excludes from the definition of animal cruelty agricultural customs and husbandry, customary veterinary practices, research, and "an activity that may cause unavoidable physical pain to an animal, including food processing, pest elimination, animal training, and hunting. . ."

That exclusion is literally in the state statute's definition. That's actually a very typical statute. Most state courts tend to construe those exceptions VERY broadly.

We often can barely get resources devoted to good felony prosecutions of animal torturers in most parts of the US, even when the laws are there for it. Prosecutors don't want to devote resources if it's not a public priority--and debates like this one have convinced some of them it's NOT a public priority (I've literally had a conversation about this with our local law enforcement leadership). Those who engage in blood sports try hard to create internet opposition to these laws (and their enforcement) by sowing fear that the laws will impact regular pet owners -- it's an actual tactic in a big-money industry. In my state, we experienced an Internet campaign to stir up opposition to a bill prohibiting sexual abuse of animals -- the Internet fear-mongering created so much baseless worry that it didn't pass the first time, because people (and the legislators themselves) weren't actually reading the bill and were worried about all sorts of imaginary stuff not actually in the bill. Worried legislators literally voted against enhanced criminal penalties for sexual abuse of animals the first time the bill came up based on arguments like the ones here. The arguments made no sense whatsoever to anyone who read the bill, but it didn't matter because "something had been on Facebook" about it.

State-level registries enable full participation in the FBI's tracking of these people in the federal animal cruelty database that's existed since 2016 tracking "gross neglect, torture, organized abuse, and sexual abuse" because of the role it has in other crime (including serial killer tracking):
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/-tr...animal-cruelty
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBytes View Post
WHAT??? This is off base? Hardly.
Give your head a shake...far cry between crating a dog and skinning it alive. Unless you are crating a dog while staving it to death. Stories of dogs who literally decomposed in their crates before investigators to a hard look. I fail to see how popping a leash and crating a dog in its home or yard for its safety falls under animal abuse.
The whole point is we all know what constitutes dog (pet/animal) abuse. No one is making light of this. You think members of a German Shepherd forum, a group that loves the breed, loves dogs, loves animals, etc...is making light of animal abuse???!!! Seriously?! Every other thread in these forums are us telling newbies to rehome their dogs because we see possible abusive/neglect/inexperienced situations. People have real/legitimate concerns of what a government entity and/or the average citizen is going to deem abuse. Like I said before, what one person sees as abuse, another might not. So a guy who sits on the legislature that writes the laws, who's never owned a dog, will decide that the crate is cruel and inhumane? That's the kind of things we are concerned about. I've read that some people consider some of Caesar Millan's methods are abusive. So now, he's put on the list?

Gator, you didn't understand the whole point of my comments. It's not about the "popping the leash or the crating a dog." It's what others think and the consequences of them reporting it. Some average citizen may see you popping the leash while walking the street and report you to the authorities for animal abuse. Obviously to us, dog owners, that's not abuse. But to that random person, it is. So what happens next? The authorities come to your house to investigate. They clear you, but they make a note in your file. The next "complaint," (false accusation) it's considered a pattern and then you're in trouble and wrongfully put on this abuse list. If you still don't get it, I'm sorry, I couldn't explain it any better. Maybe someone else can.

Magwart, I guarantee that everyone in here is all for some form of punishment against animal abusers. But is this the right way to go about doing it? There are flaws to this method and that is what people above see and are concerned about. I repeat, no one is making light of this. We're just voicing our concerns. We can see this working against those of us who are law abiding, animal loving people.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 04:02 AM
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This is why laws need to be written with definitions that are clear and not political jargon. People who are trainers and breeders need to be involved in the writing of the laws. We also need to support the officers who are probably stretched thin when they need to enforce the laws. Even better, if animals are getting neglected because a neighbor has fallen on hard times, help out if you can. If animals are being hurt because of people behaving evil, document whatever you see. If your town broadcasts their animal control procedures, give it a listen. I've found out some interesting things listening to our county's animal control board's podcasts.

We all need strong consequences for evil but we need good clear lines that say, "this person needs help" and "this person needs jail" and "this person is fine, even if I don't agree with them". Sometimes those lines are hard to draw.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 05:45 PM
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I have read the laws of our local animal control and it is very clear and simple on what constitutes neglect/abuse...things like your pet not having water, being chained outside all the time, inadequate food, being kept all day in a kennel that is too small, etc. (dimensions are listed based on size of dog). I doubt that anyone on this forum does anything like that!!

I have also seen the horrific headlines where people are pouring acid on dogs, setting turtles on fire, etc. From what I've seen, there aren't enough "enforcers" of the animal abuse laws so it's doubtful that they will be driving around nabbing people who are training with a prong collar!

Currently the laws are relatively mild even if you do horrific things to an animal (for instance, people get fined, but you rarely hear of jail time) and I think this is a way to keep track of those people in case they do it again...to more animals, or to humans. I had also heard that there is a link between animal abuse and crimes against humans...with many people "practicing" on animals first before moving up to bigger game...really horrible. :-(

The thing that amazes me is that you see the story of a dog whose nose and ears and tail have been cut off (yes, who does such things) and that dog still licks the hand of their rescuers...that always brings tears to my eyes.
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