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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

Camper's urine is too alkaline. We need to acidify it (or tone down alkaline). He has crystals and the Ph is 9.

Already, he takes 3 cranberry tablets a day, plus 1-2 Ester-C, plus I sneak in as much organic apple cider vinegar as he will tolerate.

His diet is full of blueberries, greens, and other acidic stuff. Nope, the crystals aren't oxalate crystals, although I'm kind of surprised they're not. Did I mention I'm giving him apple sauce that has ascorbic acid as well?

I have an appointment with an internist, but gosh, I'd like to get him some relief in the meantime (he has to pee frequently and goes out at least once a night, and I've pretty much ruled out behavioral causes).

His calcium/phosphorous intake is right around 1.5 : 1, give or take a bit.

Ideas? Any thoughts would be helpful. This has been going on over a year, with his Ph bouncing around 7-9. This is the first time he's actually had crystals in about a year though.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 07:22 PM
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

He is raw-fed?

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

Yup. Raw with veggies and a bit of dairy.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:12 PM
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

I'm assuming the crystals you are referring to are struvites? It sounds like you are already doing the right things to acidify the diet, but perhaps the underlying problem of the bacteria hasn't been eliminated? Below is an excerpt from an article found here: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter...ones-crystals/

I've highlighted the part that I think may be worth considering in your case.

Quote:
Quote:Struvites: These are also called ‘triple phosphate’(magnesium ammonium phosphate) and are the most commonly seen with urinary tract infections and most frequently seen in females. These type of crystals are seen in young dogs (under a year) or in middle aged or older dogs.

Breeds that have a tendency towards getting these types of crystals are Cocker Spaniels, Labrador Retrievers, Scottish Terriers, Miniature Poodles, Bichon Frise, Miniature Schnauzers, Pekingese, Basset Hounds, Springer Spaniels and German Shepherds. Struvites are almost always accompanied by bacteria that create a high alkaline pH. Always have the dog’s urine cultured for bacteria, even if none are apparent in a microscope upon microscopic inspection.

Not all bacteria will show on inspection, but a culture will reveal if any bacteria is present. Knowing which bacteria are present allows the veterinarian to prescribe the proper antibiotic to eliminate infection. It is also noted that many dogs can have struvites present in the urine and high urinary pH with no ill effects, so if a routine urinalysis shows a pH of 8.0 and a few struvite crystals, but your dog has no symptoms of any kind, there is no need to be concerned.

When the infection is treated by the correct antibiotic, cranberry juice Capsules (not cranberry juice) can be given to the dog. These help to stop bacteria from adhering to the bladder wall and help prevent future infections. Some people have had success keeping the urine acidic, which helps prevent these crystals from forming, by feeding acidic foods and avoiding alkaline foods. A raw, natural diet is high in acidic foods.

Because bladder infections lead to high alkaline urinary pH and struvite crystals, many people, including many vets, make the mistake of treating the problem by acidifying the diet. But that is confusing cause and effect. Alkaline pH and struvite crystals are not caused by a diet of alkaline foods; they are usually caused by bladder infections. Therefore, trying to make the urine more acidic will not get rid of the infection. Alkaline pH can also be normal, as pH can vary a great deal even in the same dog at different times of the day, and also by the way the urine was captured and handled before testing.

If your dog has struvite bladder stones, then acidifying the diet, along with treating the infection, can help dissolve the stones. Ascorbic acid (a form of vitamin C), and distilled water can help with this. , Acidic foods include chicken, beef, eggs, fish, pork, cottage cheese, yogurt, rice (brown and white), beans, nuts and all seafood. See http://www.herbtime.com/InformationP...kalineAcid.htm for more information on acidifying and alkalizing foods. See http://www.marvistavet.com/html/cani...er_stones.html for more information on struvite bladder stones.
I also know that there are a variety of homepathic remedies available for urinary tract health, as well as some antimicrobial varieties. Perhaps your vet or a homepathic practioner could make some recommendations.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

Thanks. I should have mentioned. We ran a culture. It came back negative for everything but crystals. And while it is, in theory, possible to have struvites without any disease, there's clearly something wrong with my guy. That's why I'm trying to figure what else we can do.

Distilled water is something I hadn't tried. And seafood. I'll add those to his diet. (Lobster for Camper. Like his raw diet isn't already expensive enough! )

Thanks.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

This is helpful too (from the page you cited). Many of us use organic ACV to treat UTIs. It would appear we're doing it wrong?

Quote:
Quote:
Alkalizing foods include apples, bananas, cabbage, broccoli, beans, potatoes, pumpkin, millet, honey, alfalfa, non-distilled vinegar (organic apple cider vinegar), squash and most fruit and most vegetables.
I'll switch to plain old Heinz apple cider vinegar and see what happens...


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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:47 PM
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

Quote:
Originally Posted By: 3K9MomDistilled water is something I hadn't tried. And seafood. I'll add those to his diet. (Lobster for Camper. Like his raw diet isn't already expensive enough! )
I hear you on that. Sometimes I shudder when I stop and think about some of the expensive tidbits my dog gets. Which is why of course I try to just not think about it.

I hope you get it figured out. Sure sounds frustrating.

A couple of years ago I met someone who was having great success with a homeopathic mix for her dog's urinary tract problems, but I can't for the life of me remember the name or the individual components of the mix.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

I've been using Animal Apawthecary's Tinkle Tonic. But I think we're beyond what that can do.

After xrays, blood work, several cultures, I'm hoping the internist with ultrasound and whatever other diagnostics she thinks are necessary will arrive at the answer. And hopefully, it's something easy to fix.

Poor Camper. He (and I) haven't slept through the night in so long. Then again, we have lovely moments on moonlit nights when we go out; he does what he needs to (it takes a while), comes back in and we walk back to the bedroom together.

We're a team.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

Lori,

I have some stuff in my cabinet that might help. Kai had urinary issues and the vets couldn't find anything and they finally resolved on their own. I can see what I have and send it to you in case it will help Camper.

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-25-2008, 06:31 AM
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Re: Here's a question! (Any chemists?)

I can see Camper dining by candlelight at a reserved table at The Ritz-Carlton, sipping a fluted crystal goblet of organic, non-distilled apple.cider vinegar, waiting for his first course, to preceed his broiled lobstertails-in-butter.

It doesn't say anything you havenm't already researched, probably-- but seems to be a caution about veggies?

Here's from TheWholeDog.org

If your dog has struvite bladder stones, then acidifying the diet, along with treating the infection, can help dissolve the stones. Ascorbic acid (a form of vitamin C), and distilled water can help with this. Acidic foods include chicken, beef, eggs, fish, pork, cottage cheese, yogurt and all seafood, Cranberry Extract, Apple Cider Vinegar and Honey (the honey shoves things in a more basic direction, apple cider vinegar to more acid, and a combination allows the body to find its own balance ).

and:

Giving a B vitamin supplement may be helpful and has been indicated in use for humans with these problems.
See our supplement recommendations below

There is also some question that high calcium, rather than causing stones, may in reality help dissolve them. This is also true of vitamin C


Here's the article:
http://www.thewholedog.org/artbladderstones.html

Extra hugs to sweetieboy Camper. May he be feeling much better, soon! Grimm sends wags and snorts and licks etc.





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