Regarding the herding 3 month old pup - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
wolfy dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 9,466
Regarding the herding 3 month old pup

Question: can a high prey drive dog learn to herd sheep without having them for dinner? Deja is almost 2 years old and has recently been "cured" of wild life chasing, which didn't have anything to do with herding!
wolfy dog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:03 PM
Knighted Member
 
Carriesue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Carlsbad, California
Posts: 2,369
Yup, my male who I do herding with is very high prey drive. It takes a lot more work though, he has to wear a muzzle and we use his electric collar but it can be done with a lot of patience. He has bitten the stock many times and has pulled one to the ground, the key is finding a trainer who is familiar with gsds and loose eyed dogs.

And yes Eva is a very high prey drive working line pup, this is a big reason why she was on leash. I think otherwise she'd have gotten herself hurt lol.

Ollie vom Grunenfeld HIC CGC
Anastasia(Mishka) vom Feuergarten HIC

Last edited by Carriesue; 09-15-2015 at 05:06 PM.
Carriesue is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:05 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,130
If you think that puppy is anything but "high prey drive" look up the pedigree and then a few videos of the parents. In either case, balance is key and using that drive to teach a dog a skill is the most important thing. To put it simply, yes, high prey drive dogs can be taught to herd. The more extended explanation would use a lot of terms and would get extremely convoluted as to where one drive/term ends and another begins and how a dog understands what it needs to do in regards to the various activities and skills we try to teach our dogs.
martemchik is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:14 PM
Knighted Member
 
Carriesue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Carlsbad, California
Posts: 2,369
Also herding drive and prey drive are not quite the same thing... Before dogs are allowed to herd they must pass an instinct test. If the dog is only trying to kill the stock and not showing any instinct then generally they are not allowed to train but as in Ollie's case he showed a lot of nice instinct, he just has a lot of drive and likes to bite. His foundation work has just been slower with a lot of hard corrections, etc. Like I said it can be done if the instinct is there, you will just need to spend more time teaching them what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

Ollie vom Grunenfeld HIC CGC
Anastasia(Mishka) vom Feuergarten HIC
Carriesue is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:29 PM
Crowned Member
 
onyx'girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SW, MI
Posts: 27,280
putting a muzzle and an e-collar on a dog while 'teaching' an instinctive genetic part of the dog is normal? I've only done tending which is more border patrolling. Do many dogs need the muzzle and e-collar for herding?

Jane~
Kept by
Gambit zu Treuen Handen

Guinness auf der Marquis...Karlo son!

Always in my heart
Karlo aka Gideon vom Wildhaus
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
3.02.09~12.03.18
Kacie
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
7.21.05-5.01.15
Onyx
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
11.08.06-9.28.18
onyx'girl is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:33 PM
Knighted Member
 
Carriesue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Carlsbad, California
Posts: 2,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
putting a muzzle and an e-collar on a dog while 'teaching' an instinctive genetic part of the dog is normal? I've only done tending which is more border patrolling. Do many dogs need the muzzle and e-collar for herding?
When teaching him not to bite the stock yes it is normal, we're not teaching him 'how' to herd with those tools. My instructor owns and trains GSD's and has done national level trials and taken first place with them so yeah I trust his advice. I wish I had access to tending style herding but we don't have it out here.

Ollie vom Grunenfeld HIC CGC
Anastasia(Mishka) vom Feuergarten HIC

Last edited by Carriesue; 09-15-2015 at 05:35 PM.
Carriesue is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
wolfy dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 9,466
I would not try it if it required muzzle and e-collar. Not a "sport" to me.
Could they learn from observing a good herder?
wolfy dog is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 05:39 PM
Knighted Member
 
Carriesue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Carlsbad, California
Posts: 2,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfy dog View Post
I would not try it if it required muzzle and e-collar. Not a "sport" to me.
Could they learn from observing a good herder?
We are only using these tools to teach him not to bite, once that's a non issue then they come off. The main reason we're using an ecollar is because of my autoimmune disease, I lost a lot of muscle strength and cannot correct him properly with the herding stick. You certainly don't have to use an ecollar if you don't want to. I just consider it an extra tool on the belt to help me.

Ollie vom Grunenfeld HIC CGC
Anastasia(Mishka) vom Feuergarten HIC
Carriesue is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Member
 
Amshru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Rural Southern Scotland
Posts: 121
This is really interesting since I live in a sheep farming area and the first thing I did when I got my GSD puppy was to talk to the local shepherd and ask about how I could train her NOT to react to the sheep. (He could legally shoot her if she was considered to be worrying the sheep.)

In Scotland, GSDs are sadly not considered "sheep dogs", but since I have a good relationship with local farmers, I'd love to improve their reputation!

Amanda
Elva GSD - 19 May 2015
Maxi and Mignon, the long-suffering rescue cats!
Amshru is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 08:03 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 58
Having owned and worked several herding breeds of border collies, yes, prey drive is what you want. The instinct to chase moving objects, to hunt/kill/eat/survive. That's the very drive you would seek in any new herding dog. No prey drive, (and you do get them occasionally from working lines), are no good, they don't survive on farms generally. They are generally shot in a farming world. Personally, i couldnt do this, but have several memories of this occurring for our working dogs

Can a herder learn simply from watching a trained herder? No, a dog will not learn the right lessons, it will learn all the bad tricks of the other dog too. Consider the behaviours on cue a herder requires? Prey drive is not enough. Focus and control of its own prey drive for the handler, cannot be taught a pup by another dog. Time in training with handler does that.

As a herder, I would say The GSD has the fault of deciding it knows better than the handler, what comes next, whereas you tend to see this less in collies, koolies or kelpies. (most popular herders in Austrlia). Also, mine gets too hot on 45 degree days to work, where the other breeds mentioned are fine. Its common for a dog not to drink when working, so dehydration is a real problem for my GSD when im working him in summer months.

Mine only herds twice a year. With 6 months break in between. Never does he forget how, or the commands. His drive to play this 'game' is intensely self reinforcing him. It beats fetch a ball any day according to berne!

We play treiball for fun. This too is better than fetch a ball according the bernie. And i can teach it from a sofa indoors if i wish!
Treiball: Sheep herding where the 'sheep' are yoga exercise balls. I also use ducks and geese to train him with, as that's all i have access to all year round.
When Bernie was learning, he'd try to bite the ball initially, so he had to first learn to control his own behaviour. I over inflate the ball, so a bite will burst it easily.
'Act of god' explosion upon pup biting is generally sufficient as a one off lesson to the dog. The 'sheep' dies instantly and ends the game. Pup wanted to keep playing, and now he's blown his opportunity, quite literally.

puncture repair kits make treiball sheep immortal, so no harm done.
Jackal is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome