Discussion: Wonder the SD & SCOTUS - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
 
ILGHAUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Central FLorida, east of Gainesville
Posts: 9,026
Discussion: Wonder the SD & SCOTUS

Decision if the law should allow parents to skip process in place if they don't believe their appeal has any chance to win. They want to be able to go straight to Federal Court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WateryTart View Post
What about this one?

Supreme Court To Hear Case Dealing With The Right To Have Service Animals In Schools : NPR

So, at issue is where people can sue if something similar happens to them, am I reading correctly? I don't know the legal ins and outs there, but that's how I read the article: What is at question is whether parents have to go through lower courts first instead of directly to federal court. It isn't about "should she be allowed to have the dog" because I don't think that's really up for debate, it's more how to go about it if her rights are not honored. I also don't have a good comprehensive understanding of how a federal lawsuit burdens a school district (and yes, I'm willing to believe there are legitimate burdens there, and that the good of all students has to be considered if there's an expensive lawsuit).

Also, if there are legitimate issues of allergies and phobias, what then? A kid with a debilitating phobia or deathly allergies has a right to an education also. Again, I'm not well versed in the legalities when one person's rights bump up against another's like this.

TJ aka Theresa A. Jennings
Pyro vom Wildhaus aka Kaleb ~S.T.A.R.~
Family Companion, Non-Profit Mascot, In-Home Service Dog


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project (ADAP),
Humane Animal Education & Services (HAES),

Last edited by ILGHAUS; 11-04-2016 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Adding beginning sentence to explain intent.
ILGHAUS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 02:51 PM
Deb
Knighted Member
 
Deb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,388
Also, if there are legitimate issues of allergies and phobias, what then? A kid with a debilitating phobia or deathly allergies has a right to an education also.


This is what the ADA has on this:


Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility.
Deb is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:09 PM
Knighted Member
 
WateryTart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MN
Posts: 2,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb View Post
Also, if there are legitimate issues of allergies and phobias, what then? A kid with a debilitating phobia or deathly allergies has a right to an education also.


This is what the ADA has on this:


Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility.
What if someone is like asthmatic, life threatening level of allergic?

I am only speculating because I don't know the actual details on these kids (the allergic ones or the phobic one). I do know that my nephew is so phobic of dogs that he will just about soil himself in the presence of one. I can't imagine him learning in an environment with a dog, even a service dog. So I'm curious about that. that's maybe more of a moral question than a legal one.

The legal question I'm really interested in is, what are the ramifications if the Frys win their case?
WateryTart is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
 
ILGHAUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Central FLorida, east of Gainesville
Posts: 9,026
Fry v. Napoleon Community Schools

Fry v. Napoleon Community Schools

More information on this case. This is from the SCOTUSblog.
Young owner is not named except by initials.

Argument analysis: Looking for a line in service dog case
Posted Mon, October 31st, 2016 3:48 pm by Amy Howe

The most famous goldendoodle in America was outside the Supreme Court today, accompanied by some of his service dog friends. A Michigan school district’s refusal to allow Wonder, a trained service dog, to go to school with E.F., a student who was born with cerebral palsy and whose mobility is impaired, was the catalyst for the first oral argument of the day, in Fry v. Napoleon Community Schools. Stacy and Brent Fry, E.F.’s parents, filed a lawsuit in federal district court, arguing that the school district violated two federal civil rights laws – the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehabilitation Act – when they barred Wonder from E.F.’s school.

wonder
Photo by Amy Howe

The question before the justices today was whether the Frys could take their case directly to federal court, or whether they were first obligated to go through state administrative proceedings under the Individuals with Disabilities Act, a federal law that requires states to provide students with disabilities with a “free and appropriate public education.” The school board maintains, and the lower courts agreed, that the Frys must go through the administrative proceedings first. But Samuel Bagenstos, the Frys’ lawyer, told the justices today that there is no such requirement, because the Frys are seeking relief that has nothing to do with E.F.’s education and is not available under the IDEA: money damages for the “social and emotional” harms that E.F. suffered from not having Wonder at school – for example, the humiliation of having to use the toilet with the door to the stall open and several adults watching.

During the oral argument, there seemed to be a fairly solid consensus among the justices that this is a classic case in which a family should not be required to go through administrative proceedings, because the Frys are seeking damages for purely emotional harms, which Justice Sonia Sotomayor listed in some detail. How, Sotomayor asked Neal Katyal, who argued on behalf of the school board today, would the IDEA compensate the family for these harms?

Neal K. Katyal for respondents
Neal K. Katyal for respondents (Art Lien)

Katyal pushed back valiantly against the notion that the Frys’ particular case is an easy one. He emphasized the family’s request, made in its complaint, for a ruling by the trial court that the school’s refusal to accommodate Wonder violated the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act. That effectively asked the court to rule that excluding Wonder from E.F.’s Individualized Education Plan, the legal document that is developed under the IDEA for each child with special needs, violated her rights, he said – the kind of issue that is at the core of the IDEA.

But the justices seemed unpersuaded. Sotomayor, herself a former trial judge, urged Katyal to look at the complaint as a whole. The Frys, Sotomayor suggested, are not asking that the court issue a ruling on anything related to E.F.’s education itself. In fact, she noted, E.F. no longer even attends school in the school district. Justice Elena Kagan added that the Frys wanted Wonder to be available to help their daughter with things entirely unrelated to her education. And she pointed out that the Frys could have brought a very similar lawsuit if their daughter had been barred from bringing Wonder into a public library. The fact that the IDEA exists for schools, she emphasized, doesn’t mean that the ADA and Rehabilitation Act don’t apply to schools at all.

But even if the justices seemed sympathetic to the Frys’ situation, their ruling will extend far beyond that family’s case. The justices therefore puzzled over how to draw the line for future cases. One recurring concern, voiced early in the oral argument by Justice Anthony Kennedy, but also by Chief Justice John Roberts, was the prospect that strategic pleading in a complaint would allow families to bypass the exhaustion requirement in true IDEA cases simply by tacking on a request for damages under the ADA and Rehabilitation Act.

Bagenstos tried to reassure the justices that such an opportunity will often not be available, because not all cases will involve both the IDEA and the ADA, but Justice Stephen Breyer remained skeptical. If we rule for the Frys, he posited, there will be many cases in which families can avoid the exhaustion requirement by suing for emotional harm, which would “seem to gut” the system that the IDEA carefully sets up. And, he observed, many cases that might otherwise reach a negotiated settlement in the administrative proceedings won’t go through those proceedings at all.

Samuel R. Bagenstos for petitioner
Samuel R. Bagenstos for petitioners (Art Lien)

Bagenstos told Breyer that such a result would be precisely what Congress intended when it enacted the exhaustion requirement: Most parents will go through the IDEA process, but others, as in this case, will not. Roman Martinez, an assistant to the solicitor general who argued on behalf of the United States, emphasized that parents will choose the fastest option to get relief for their children, which will generally be state administrative proceedings rather than lawsuits in federal court.

Roberts also worried aloud about the possibility that a lawyer might advise her client to seek more leverage in negotiations with the school board by suing under the ADA for money damages. Bagenstos pushed back, telling the Chief Justice that the exhaustion requirement has no effect on a family’s leverage; they can simultaneously file a complaint under the IDEA and give notice of their intent to seek damages in a lawsuit down the road. The threat of extended litigation provides just as much leverage as going to federal court at the outset, Bagenstos suggested, but the Chief Justice did not agree.

The justices also pondered how their eventual ruling in this case would apply to future cases that, even if the families are not trying to circumvent the exhaustion requirement, are simply closer calls. During Bagenstos’ rebuttal, Sotomayor acknowledged that the Frys’ case “is an ideal situation.” But, she asked, what if the lawsuit had been filed while E.F. was still in school, and it sought (among other things) a change to E.F.’s educational plan?

Bagenstos responded that, under the Supreme Court’s case law, claims that did not implicate the IDEA could go forward, while claims related to the IDEA would “fall by the wayside.” (Katyal seemed to agree with this idea, although not with Bagenstos’ assessment of what claims would or would not be able to proceed.) But Sotomayor noted that a rule that created a “dual-track” system in each case could “raise hesitation” among some members of the court, including her.

If the justices’ quandary was how to draw a line that allowed “easy” cases like the Frys’ to go forward in federal court while ensuring that mine-run cases will begin with administrative proceedings, three possible solutions seemed to emerge. Roberts raised, and then Kagan returned to, the first possibility. You are making two arguments, she told Bagenstos, about why exhaustion of administrative remedies is not required in this case. The Frys are asking for damages for emotional distress, which are not available under the IDEA, and they are not alleging that E.F. was denied the “free and appropriate public education” to which she is entitled under the IDEA. In fact, Kagan noted, everyone agrees that E.F. did receive a FAPE. This is an “easy” case, Kagan hypothesized, because both these arguments are true. Roberts then chimed in, telling Bagenstos that a rule that exhaustion is not required if both criteria are met would address many of the potential problems with other cases. Bagenstos maintained that the Frys should prevail if either criterion is met, but he also readily agreed with Roberts that the Frys would prevail even if the court were to require that their case meet both criteria.

Breyer proposed two other possible rules. First, during Martinez’s argument, Breyer put forward what he seemed to regard as a simple rule: If it would be futile for a family to go through state administrative proceedings, then it would not have to. Martinez agreed with Breyer that the court could adopt such a rule. Or, Breyer suggested, courts could look at the gravamen of the complaint. If the heart of the complaint really focuses on the IEP, then a family will have to go through the administrative proceedings unless it would be futile to do so.

The eight justices will vote on the case at their private conference this week. But it will likely be next year before we learn whether the Frys (and Wonder) will indeed prevail, and if so on what ground.

Share:
© 2016 SCOTUSblog (click for license)

TJ aka Theresa A. Jennings
Pyro vom Wildhaus aka Kaleb ~S.T.A.R.~
Family Companion, Non-Profit Mascot, In-Home Service Dog


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project (ADAP),
Humane Animal Education & Services (HAES),
ILGHAUS is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
 
ILGHAUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North Central FLorida, east of Gainesville
Posts: 9,026
This case is not about allergies of other students.

It is if the process set in place currently can be shortened for those parents or guardians that are certain that at the lower level they will not win. They are trying to get a pathway to go directly to a Federal Court without going through the regulations as they are now set up. The Supreme Court sounds like they are not agreeing with this proposal but will debate it. It may be next year before they release their decision.

We do know that E.F. no longer attends school in the district any longer. Wonder is now retired.

I'll try to find out more details on this ...

TJ aka Theresa A. Jennings
Pyro vom Wildhaus aka Kaleb ~S.T.A.R.~
Family Companion, Non-Profit Mascot, In-Home Service Dog


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project (ADAP),
Humane Animal Education & Services (HAES),

Last edited by ILGHAUS; 11-03-2016 at 03:46 PM. Reason: A few more facts.
ILGHAUS is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:29 PM
Deb
Knighted Member
 
Deb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by WateryTart View Post
What if someone is like asthmatic, life threatening level of allergic?

I am only speculating because I don't know the actual details on these kids (the allergic ones or the phobic one). I do know that my nephew is so phobic of dogs that he will just about soil himself in the presence of one. I can't imagine him learning in an environment with a dog, even a service dog. So I'm curious about that. that's maybe more of a moral question than a legal one.

The legal question I'm really interested in is, what are the ramifications if the Frys win their case?

Many schools have more than one classroom for a specific grade so they would place them in different rooms. As to the fear, that is close to being a disability as he will find dogs around him as he goes through life so I hope his parents are trying to help him with this. Poor boy, my heart goes out to him.


If it is truly life threatening, the school district may choose to place one in a different school. One of my son's is hearing impaired and used a FM system in addition to be aided. They sent him to a different school where they had all the HI kids in one classroom so they could all have the HI teacher with them most of the day and the whole class, HI kids and hearing kids, could learn sign language. (Parents could choose not to do this.) My oldest son has a slight hearing impairment, a school in a different state did the same thing, so it's not unusual for a school district to accommodate by using different schools in the same district. When they do this they provide the transportation. If a parent chooses to do this the parent must provide the transportation. I've had children in my special ed classroom where parents set up their own transportation to have them there. So the option for a parent to move their child can be done with school and school board permission. These are just examples of how it could be handled for a SD and a child who can't be near one.
Deb is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:34 PM
Knighted Member
 
WateryTart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MN
Posts: 2,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILGHAUS View Post
This case is not about allergies of other students.
No, that's a tangent I went down because the NPR article mentioned the school citing those reasons (allergies and a phobia). It IS interesting, at least to me, though admittedly probably not really a legal question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILGHAUS View Post
It is if the process set in place currently can be shortened for those parents or guardians that are certain that at the lower level they will not win. They are trying to get a pathway to go directly to a Federal Court without going through the regulations as they are not set up. The Supreme Court sounds like they are not agreeing with this proposal but will debate it. It may be next year before they release their decision.

We do know that E.F. no longer attends school in the district any longer. Wonder is now retired.

I'll try to find out more details on this ...
Thanks for posting the blog article, that's a good read. I was wondering about the legalities. that gives more background than the news articles.
WateryTart is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:41 PM
Knighted Member
 
WateryTart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MN
Posts: 2,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb View Post
Many schools have more than one classroom for a specific grade so they would place them in different rooms. As to the fear, that is close to being a disability as he will find dogs around him as he goes through life so I hope his parents are trying to help him with this. Poor boy, my heart goes out to him.
No clue what they're doing. We see a lot less of them now as a direct result of having the dog and having to make arrangements for her care when we travel. It didn't sound like they were doing much other than trying to avoid dogs in daily life and reassure/support him when they do encounter, but I may just not be privy to other efforts (not the child of my sibling).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb View Post
If it is truly life threatening, the school district may choose to place one in a different school. One of my son's is hearing impaired and used a FM system in addition to be aided. They sent him to a different school where they had all the HI kids in one classroom so they could all have the HI teacher with them most of the day and the whole class, HI kids and hearing kids, could learn sign language. (Parents could choose not to do this.) My oldest son has a slight hearing impairment, a school in a different state did the same thing, so it's not unusual for a school district to accommodate by using different schools in the same district. When they do this they provide the transportation. If a parent chooses to do this the parent must provide the transportation. I've had children in my special ed classroom where parents set up their own transportation to have them there. So the option for a parent to move their child can be done with school and school board permission. These are just examples of how it could be handled for a SD and a child who can't be near one.
I figured that would be possible in a school or district big enough to have multiple places to educate kids of the same grade level. A very tiny school with one classroom per grade would be harder.
WateryTart is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:50 PM
Deb
Knighted Member
 
Deb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,388
Just in case someone doesn't know these:


IDEA - Individuals with Disabilities Education Act
FAPE - Free Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) is an educational right of children with disabilities in the United States that is guaranteed by the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).


As a prior Special Education teacher reading the article was very interesting. I'm curious to see what they decide. When a SD was about to be brought into our school district the SPED coordinator talked to me, asking questions. They had no problems will allowing it, just wanted info from a 'dog person/trainer' perspective.
Deb is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 03:54 PM
Deb
Knighted Member
 
Deb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,388
I figured that would be possible in a school or district big enough to have multiple places to educate kids of the same grade level. A very tiny school with one classroom per grade would be harder.


I have never taught or lived in a school district that didn't have more than one elementary school. I grew up where there was only one high school for the entire county, so very rural. But there were multiple elementary schools. Once they hit middle school there were all the children from the county, so keeping a child separate from a SD would be possible.
Deb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome